Curt Harlow [00:00:00]:
Hello, my friend. Welcome back to the Bible study. And this is a particularly special version of the Bible study because for the first time, we have the founding pastor of Bayside Church, Ray Johnson's here. Welcome, Ray.
Ray Johnston [00:00:11]:
Hey. I finally bought a Bible. You guys invite me to this thing. Thank you.
Curt Harlow [00:00:14]:
And we're gonna get some use out of that. Of course. Always the frontal lobe of Thrive College. We got Dena Davidson here, and we are going on a little quick one. Yeah.
Ray Johnston [00:00:24]:
Before we get into this, some of you may not know Dena that well. You went to where for college. So give them your academic pedigree because a lot of people don't know this. And it's very impressive.
Dena Davidson [00:00:36]:
Sure. So I was a homeschooled pastor's kid that majored in philosophy at a secular university. I had a very real crisis of faith. And after that, I had a list of questions that I didn't have the answer to. So from there I went on my background in philosophy. I went and I studied apologetics at Biola.
Ray Johnston [00:00:56]:
And.
Dena Davidson [00:00:56]:
And I didn't go on it because I wanted to one day be on the Bible podcast, the Bible study pod.
Ray Johnston [00:01:00]:
What? I know, right?
Dena Davidson [00:01:02]:
I did it because I had a list of questions that were so challenging to my faith, and I really believed that Jesus was God. And I wanted to have great answers to those tough questions. So I earned my master's in Christian apologetics from Biola, and here we are today.
Ray Johnston [00:01:17]:
Like I said, great school, great program, and Dean is everybody's kind of favorite. Really smart person.
Curt Harlow [00:01:25]:
Yes.
Ray Johnston [00:01:26]:
Place Mark Clark's in the running for the same title, but there's a few.
Curt Harlow [00:01:29]:
Of them around here. But Dena is definitely at the top of my list. Like I said, the frontal lobe of Bayside and Thrive Leadership College 5 College. All right, we're going to do. I'm going to ask you to follow us on a little bit of a detour here. We've been in Ephesians, those of you that have been watching and listening, you, you know, we're in Ephesians, but we're kind of doing a two week deep dive on one particular family of churches in the New Testament that set the tone for all other churches, in fact, Thessalonians, Philippians, a good portion of the Book of Acts, and this passage in Second Corinthians we're about to read here is about these churches and why we should be more like these churches, especially the first one in Philippi and Thessalonica. And so it's just kind of a little miniseries within the series where we're asking ourselves, how could we become the full expression of the New Testament church? And so the. The little background context here is that Paul is going on a second missionary journey.
Curt Harlow [00:02:31]:
He wants to go visit all the churches that he started in the first one. But God says, no, don't do that. He gives him a dream. It's a Greek, big Greek guy, the Macedonian man. And he says, we come over here, we need the gospel over here. Paul changes his plan, goes into the incredible risk that is crossing over the Mediterranean into the Greek side. And he meets. Immediately he meets his head board member, Lydia.
Curt Harlow [00:02:57]:
Then he meets his head usher, the jailer, and then he meets his youth pastor, the demon possessed teenager. And God miraculously bursts this church in.
Ray Johnston [00:03:08]:
Philippi that basically had a bunch of losers, and they started a church and they became the pastor, just like Bayside.
Curt Harlow [00:03:13]:
Exactly. So. All right, enough context. Dena, let's jump into this study. We're reading here in Second Corinthians, chapter eight. We're going to read the first ten verses. Dena, go ahead. And if you're driving, pull over or don't pull out your Bible.
Curt Harlow [00:03:29]:
Other than that, pull out your Bible. Second Corinthians, chapter eight.
Ray Johnston [00:03:32]:
It's great stuff. Love it.
Dena Davidson [00:03:34]:
Chapter eight. And now, brothers, we want you to know about the grace that God has given the Macedonian churches out of the most severe trial. Their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity. For I testify that they gave as much as they were able and. And even beyond their ability, entirely on their own. They urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the saints. And they did not do as we expected. But they gave themselves first to the Lord and then to us in keeping with God's will.
Dena Davidson [00:04:07]:
So we urge Titus, since he had earlier made a beginning, to bring also to completion this act of grace on your part. But just as you excel in everything, in faith, in speech and knowledge, in complete earnestness, and in your love for us, see that you also excel in this grace of giving. I am not commanding you, but I want to test the sincerity of your love by comparing it with the earnestness of others. For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you, through his poverty, might become rich. And here is my advice about what is best for you in this matter. Last year, you were the first not only to give, but also to have the desire to do so. Now finish the work so that your eager willingness to do it may be matched by your completion of it according to your means.
Curt Harlow [00:04:57]:
Okay, Ray, I have heard you teach on 1 Corinthians and 2 Corinthians a ton. And my favorite part of your teaching is when you set the tone. Paul's writing here in Macedonia back to the church in Corinth, and you kind of set the tone. What challenge did Paul have here in trying to pastor this church in Corinth?
Ray Johnston [00:05:18]:
Okay, well, first you gotta go, like, who's he writing this to?
Curt Harlow [00:05:22]:
Right?
Ray Johnston [00:05:22]:
And he's writing this to the Corinthians, obviously. Okay. And if you're going, what was Corinth like? Like, we have these people like whiting going, how in the world can you be a Christian when we have the Internet? How in the world can you be a faithful God honoring person with good character? But we always. People going, I don't think I can be a Christian in California. I gotta run away.
Curt Harlow [00:05:43]:
Yes.
Ray Johnston [00:05:44]:
Not that's ever happened.
Curt Harlow [00:05:45]:
It's the hardest time ever in temptation. Yeah.
Ray Johnston [00:05:48]:
And you're going, wait a second. This is crazy because I've been to Corinth several times. We've taken tours to Corinth, been in the city, gotten to teach the Bible right where it happened. We've all been there. And Corinth, here's the markers of it. Number one, it's seaside and it's coastal. Okay? Just like where we live. Second is it's.
Ray Johnston [00:06:07]:
It's wealthy. Third is it was. It was sexually saturated, which is probably the biggest thing. When you go into Corinth, ancient Corinth, down there, they have the. The whole city's there. The bema seat where the apostle Paul was tried is right, right there. You know, like, you can stand where the Apostle Paul was right there, but you look back and there's a huge mountain called Acro Cor. Okay? And those things, they call them acropolises, which is acro, which means high city, high.
Ray Johnston [00:06:38]:
And in those days, they had no real defense. So if they're getting attacked, they would try to locate their city at the base of a mountain. So if somebody invaded, they would all run up at the top of this mountain and they would fight everybody off, okay? And. And so this guy takes me over and he goes, you may not want to tell everybody else about this, which I did, but he goes, he goes, look at the top of this thing. He goes, see that outline there? And you could see it like it's a thousand more feet up. You could see the outline of some building that had been a really big building. And just the Bottom sort of wall is still there. And he goes, do you know what that is? I said, no.
Ray Johnston [00:07:13]:
And he goes, that's the temple of Aphrodite. And he said, they had a thousand prostitutes up there, and that was where they went to worship. And they would go up, frenzied worship. And they would have sex with prostitutes as part of their worship thing. And it was basically an ancient fertility rite. And you were under a ton of pressure to do that, because if the ground wasn't fertile, everybody would die. So there's pressure to be sexually active with people that you're not married to. And then at night, a lot of these prostitutes would just come down into the town and kind of ply their trade, okay? And literally going, from what I know, we're not doing that in California yet, okay? And I love this because this Paul writes 1 Corinthians and 2 Corinthians.
Ray Johnston [00:08:07]:
Like, it's the longest stuff Paul wrote in daily books. Because they're in such a great thing. I title this thing first Californians. I mean, think about. You're going, okay, is there a place? It's wealthy. It's the place to be. Right? Right. It's coastal.
Ray Johnston [00:08:19]:
It's sexually saturated. That's Corinth. This might be the most relevant thing to Californians. Okay? And what I love is he doesn't write them and say, move to Texas. It's the only way you're going to have a maid. Okay? And. But he does.
Curt Harlow [00:08:31]:
There is no Greek word for Tennessee. Exactly.
Ray Johnston [00:08:34]:
He writes this book to strengthen these people. And he writes this book, and I think he pretty much, I'm going to give you the core markers and steps to be a godly person. Okay? Oh, by the way, there's one other really cool thing. The first time I was there, this is probably 20 years ago, took a tour there. And the guide goes, I want to take you there because we're not supposed to be there. He goes, but I want to show you something. And so he goes, so come with me. So we kind of leave the group, we go across the street, down this other street, climb over this wall and kind of go into this fenced off field we're not supposed to be in.
Ray Johnston [00:09:07]:
And it's not excavated yet. And he said, it's interesting. He said, I've been told he'd never been there. He said, I've been told that there is a marker here. And it was a street marker. Cause they built a street all the way up Marble street, all the way up from the ocean into this Town. And he said, in the book of Romans, okay, it says this Erastus, who is the city's director of public works and our brother Cortis send you greetings. And he says, so this is when Paul is writing to the Romans.
Ray Johnston [00:09:43]:
And he said, all These critics for 100 years said, oh, this is proof the Bible's made up. Erastus is not listed in anywhere. We can't find anything with his name on it and all of this kind of stuff. And he goes, I think there is a something over there, and his name's on it. Do you want to go see if we can find it? So we hop this thing, we go over, and we are brushing because the stones are still there. We're brushing all this stuff out of the way, and we find one. It's got letters on it, and we brush it off. And it says, in their language, dedicated to Erastus, the director of public works.
Ray Johnston [00:10:25]:
And we're standing. I took pictures of this thing. We're standing there going, a stone in Corinth confirms what Paul writes to the Romans. That's cool. And I think it was dedicated to this guy, okay? Because he's the guy that made this whole thing happen. And so this is a great book with a ton of really phenomenal stuff in it.
Curt Harlow [00:10:47]:
What I love about this and everything you just said is the contrast between the Corinthian church you just described and the Macedonian churches that Paul describes. It just couldn't be more stark and more instructive to us. Dena, you're sitting down. You're having your cup of coffee in the morning. You're studying this passage. You're looking at that Paul writing to this Corinthian church that's not following through and talking about this faithful things. How do you deal with this passage? What do you see there?
Dena Davidson [00:11:16]:
Yeah, the first thing that caught me was the mention that it was the Macedonian churches, because we just came through forever in the book of Acts. A wonderful forever, but it was forever. And I remember, you know, it's hard. It's persecution. But something happens when he gets to the Macedonian churches, and it just begins to. The persecution gets so much tougher. And I think that really ties in where it says in verse two out of the most severe trial. And I think it just backs up everything that was talked about in the Book of Acts, that this was a church that was having an extremely challenging circumstance.
Dena Davidson [00:11:53]:
It could just be the persecution in that area. Maybe there's more to that specific trial. But what he says next is striking to me because this is not how I respond personally to extreme trial overflowing joy. And then you pair that with extreme poverty. So you've got these believers who are in an intense trial, and they have extreme poverty, which. This is a recipe for depression. Right. This is a recipe for where is God in this? And their response was overflowing joy.
Dena Davidson [00:12:27]:
Honestly, like, this is a type of faith that the Bible is speaking to that I often do not possess.
Curt Harlow [00:12:33]:
So I grew up kind of lower middle class. Our. Our month and our money did not match up frequently as a child. There was nine of us. That's. That's a phrase I stole from you. And Kelly, my wife, she grew up in real serious poverty, like.
Ray Johnston [00:12:51]:
Lots and.
Curt Harlow [00:12:51]:
Lots of drugs, needles in her front yard. Moved 18 times in 20 years, HUD housing. And you know what? That extreme poverty she grew up in and my mild poverty produced two different things. She is a much more generous person than me.
Ray Johnston [00:13:07]:
Wow.
Curt Harlow [00:13:08]:
And it's a weird kind of contrast. I think you could be really, really wealthy and very generous. I've met a lot of those people. And you could be very, very poor and. And very greedy. And you could be very, very poor. And like my wife, very generous. And you could be very, very wealthy.
Curt Harlow [00:13:23]:
And, you know, it works all the different ways. But there is something about that dynamic where she had to believe that God was a provider in a much more intense way than I did. And she does believe it, and she just believes it. I think that same effect is happening here. Whereas I grew up just poor enough that I want to hold on to my stuff. I don't want to be. I don't want to go back there.
Dena Davidson [00:13:48]:
Yes.
Curt Harlow [00:13:48]:
And have any of that. And so trusting and letting go is difficult for me. Here's the city of Corinth. They were orators. Right. They were celebrity speakers. And Paul goes, I'm not taking an honorarium from you because you guys all make a ton of money doing this. You're celebrity speaking.
Curt Harlow [00:14:04]:
Athens, the head of philosophy, Corinth, the head of oration. And so Paul makes tents down there. Right. But in their wealth, they made a promise to give to the poor in Jerusalem, and they didn't follow through.
Dena Davidson [00:14:17]:
That's crazy.
Curt Harlow [00:14:18]:
And then, just as you said, Dena, in their extreme poverty here, now what's happening? The Macedonian region is conquered by Rome, for they've been Roman for 150 years, and the taxation on them was extreme. Then on top of that, California. Yes, exactly. It's the exact analogy. Then on top of that, Christianity had two qualities that made the Romans hate them. So the Romans were very tolerant. A lot of different religions. As long as you worship Caesar and you weren't novel and disruptive.
Curt Harlow [00:14:53]:
These two things describe Christianity. They didn't worship Caesar, and they were very novel, and they were very disruptive. And so they have the taxation on them, and then they have the persecution on them, and yet they remain generous. And here you have the Corinthians, wealthy port city, and they don't remain generous. And it's just. I don't know, it's very. It's convicting to me. Every time I read this, I'm like, this is like Kelly and me.
Dena Davidson [00:15:20]:
I think there's something about what you're describing where it's basically like, control, right? So it seems like the Macedonians, the world was so out of control for them that they had learned no attempt to control this trial is going to work. No attempt to provide for myself is ultimately going to fix this problem. Their lives were so out of control, they didn't believe that they were sufficient to fix the problem. It's almost like they had to trust in God, and that was the choice they made. Whereas other people. It's just maybe we deceive ourselves into thinking the world is just inside our control. Like, if we strategize a little bit more, we talked to the right financial advisor, we schemed a little bit, we moved to the right place, then we would have the life that we want. And I just think that's an interesting thing, that if you can yield yourself.
Curt Harlow [00:16:12]:
Yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:16:13]:
And this is maybe getting into application, but, like, if you can yield yourself to. To the chaos in your life and say, I need someone bigger than me to fix this problem, that. That's where the life that you want, the joy and the peace can actually be found.
Curt Harlow [00:16:25]:
Okay, here's a question I want to ask you, Pastor Ray, but can I insert this verse? Go ahead. Absolutely.
Ray Johnston [00:16:30]:
This verse might be one of the most powerful in all of the Corinthian. Both Corinthian epistles, he says, out of their most severe trial. So they're going through really hard times. Okay. And what I'd say is this. Like, what I was. I wrote this down. I said, markers of great God honoring people.
Ray Johnston [00:16:54]:
Number one marker here is this. They didn't let their circumstances affect their level of joy or their level of generosity. That's, like, miraculous. I mean, but it is. Right now we're going, what do spiritual people look like? Oh, they have the whole book of Hebrews memorized, you know, all of this kind of stuff. And we've all these whack out online people going, oh, you're spiritual if you do X, Y and z. No, no. Their first mark of a really God honoring, impact type person is they did not let their level of joy, their circumstances, affect their level of joy or their level of generosity.
Ray Johnston [00:17:37]:
In other words, their inner life and their generosity life wasn't anchored on circumstances. It was anchored on a deep, deep belief that God was there and had better days ahead. I think that that's needed in Corinth and it's needed in California.
Curt Harlow [00:17:52]:
Absolutely. And it's needed in Christianity. I can't tell you the amount. It's always weird to criticize podcasts on a podcast.
Dena Davidson [00:17:58]:
Sure, totally.
Curt Harlow [00:18:00]:
But the amount of podcasts where it's like, stop scrolling. You're not spiritual because you don't see this issue the way I see this issue. As opposed to the amount of podcasts that say, let's be radically Jesus generous because he died for us and he was the ultimate example. It's just. It's a rampage out there. Okay, here's the question I want to ask.
Ray Johnston [00:18:20]:
It's related question you.
Curt Harlow [00:18:22]:
Absolutely.
Ray Johnston [00:18:22]:
I think it's a big deal. We were talking about this a little bit earlier. Everybody's throwing the word courage around right now. Okay. Like, like pastors will get up and say, if you don't do exactly what I say and vote for who I'm telling you to vote for, then you don't have courage.
Curt Harlow [00:18:40]:
Right.
Ray Johnston [00:18:41]:
Or if you don't get my pet project, you don't have courage. Or if you don't mention so and so or whatever.
Curt Harlow [00:18:46]:
Or if you did say it, you that shows you don't have courage because you're going with the wave.
Ray Johnston [00:18:51]:
In a sense, you can't win. And so in a sense you're going, what are the markers that somebody has courage? It's not that some. They're hiding behind their keyboard attacking pastors or Christians or whoever. That is not courage. That's cowardice. Okay? I look at this and I go, what's courage? Courage is going through hell on earth and not walking away from God. Courage is going through hell on earth and not letting that destroy my level of joy. Courage is going through hell on earth and not.
Ray Johnston [00:19:20]:
And keep giving. It's like every single thing you want is on the other side of not giving up.
Curt Harlow [00:19:28]:
Yes.
Ray Johnston [00:19:28]:
And the. And so you look at this and go, that's what courage is. And I saw it last week. It was pretty cool. We had the 50th 50 years ago when I was way Younger. My wife's in high school. I'm just graduating high school. And we start a Bible study that grew up into a church.
Ray Johnston [00:19:48]:
So last weekend, we had our 50th anniversary, and all these people came back. A lot of them were older than us, and it was. And then they said, would you preach for 30 minutes? Which nobody wanted because they wanted to meet each other. So I just got up and said, I just want to say thank you to some people that are here. And this guy named Frank, he's awesome. He led worship. He now has advanced Parkinson's. And so instead of hiding, he went on stage, sat in a chair with some of the old members of the band, and they played the instruments.
Ray Johnston [00:20:21]:
And Frank shook and sank into the microphone as best he could. I got tears on my eyes. I'm going. I just said, frank, I want to thank you publicly. You showing up here and doing that, that had courage. We had a lot of women there who'd lost husbands, and it would have been easy for them to hide, and they showed up. That took courage. And John Archer, the guy that led me to Christ and talked me back into a relationship with God, when I threw it away, he's the reason I have everything I have in my wife, our church, all this kind of stuff.
Ray Johnston [00:20:57]:
His wife died a month and a half ago. I was with her and him the night before she passed away. And he showed up, and I just went, courage is not somebody with a keyboard whining and complaining about, no, people don't have courage. No, courage is showing up. And they just kept showing up for God. And this is a great, great book. Matter of fact, it's almost like this needs to get back into Christians.
Curt Harlow [00:21:21]:
Right.
Ray Johnston [00:21:22]:
Instead of the garbage in a lot of.
Curt Harlow [00:21:23]:
Yes. I've been saying to our congregation and Auburn just a ton. I've said it every week for probably the last three months, even before all the incredible tragedy of the current moment. You know, outrage is easy. Outrage is so easy. And there are things that make me outraged. I'm not immune to it. I get very upset at how things are handled, said, and things that are done in tragedies.
Curt Harlow [00:21:48]:
Reconciliation is hard. Staying loyal isn't loyal until it's hard to be loyal. And so we just. This is this. This. This Macedonian. And what's.
Ray Johnston [00:22:01]:
Here's.
Curt Harlow [00:22:02]:
What's amazing about this church is they are not. They're not Greek God fearers that know the Old Testament. When Paul comes, he spends like, three months with them. And Titus or Timothy teaches there, and Luke teaches there. And I think Silas teaches, there's and a few others. So they get this good teaching, but it's not a long duration. And they have this epiphany. And the epiphany is because Christ sacrificed, we have to sacrifice.
Curt Harlow [00:22:27]:
Because Christ gave everything to us, we should be willing to give everything whenever it's needed. And I see people that go to church every Sunday for most of their life or they listen to a ton of different preachers online and they don't get that epiphany. And the Corinthians struggled staying in that epiphany. But yet somehow, by mastering the real dynamic of Jesus, I did not deserve him to die for me. He's given me eternity. I didn't earn it. Now my life is spent giving. Now you think about this, Macedonians, Greeks under Roman rule sending their money that they don't have any of it to Jews in Jerusalem.
Curt Harlow [00:23:11]:
This is like I always say, we like the miracles in the, in the New Testament where the blind gets healed and the lame man walks in front of this thing. This is a miracle.
Dena Davidson [00:23:19]:
Yes.
Curt Harlow [00:23:20]:
This is an incredible America. Okay, now I want to ask you this question, but you got anything you want to say before I ask it, go ahead.
Ray Johnston [00:23:26]:
Okay, always. But we will never get to the question.
Curt Harlow [00:23:28]:
Exactly. So here's the question I want to ask. There's someone out there, they're listening to this and they're going, oh, three pastors sitting around talking about money passage again, that's all you pastors want to talk about, is money. When people ask you that question, Pastor Ray, what's your answer? How do you handle that?
Ray Johnston [00:23:45]:
Number one, I'm assuming you tune to this because you're a Bible person, which is awesome because so are we. We're a Bible believing, Bible teaching church. Matter of fact, we have our Bible conference this year. Oh, I should talk about that for a second.
Curt Harlow [00:23:57]:
Yeah, absolutely.
Ray Johnston [00:23:59]:
The Bible conference. I gathered our pastors a few years ago and I don't usually do this. I said, I think we should launch a Bible conference. And they all looked at me like we were nuts. Now I looked them up online and there were none. And I thought maybe there are none because nobody goes to one. But I went, we need to launch a Bible conference. But I mean, like a serious Bible conference.
Ray Johnston [00:24:18]:
Teach it, have seminars, all this kind of stuff, do it for three days. And the reason was I went, I think we have a whole lot of people that, number one, are ignoring the Bible or they're changing it to make it politically correct on the right or the left or Whatever. And I went, I just think we need to give people the straight word of God. Well, we'd launch this Bible conference. It's the first night, and I'm driving out. You guys were there probably the same thing. We're all driving there. My wife goes, what do you think's gonna happen? I went, maybe there's none of these.
Ray Johnston [00:24:53]:
Cause nobody comes. And if there's like 12 people, we'll take them out to dinner, right? And let the speaker talk at the table. And we arrive and our parking lots were full. Overflow was full. That time. We had to put it in some other room. We had to broadcast it in other rooms. This year, it's gone beyond that.
Ray Johnston [00:25:10]:
It's in five places. So number one, I'm thrilled about that. Okay? The problem is this. Lots of people go to the Bible conference to learn to be more judgmental. And so we teach this stuff straight. So when somebody comes up and says money, number one is somebody will come up and go, I don't believe in tithing. The 10% stuff, I don't believe. Da, da, da.
Ray Johnston [00:25:32]:
And you can debate that till the cow comes home. So I. Now what I've done is I've said, hey, first of all, if you're currently giving more than 10% of your income, fine with me. Believe what you want about this, okay? But if you're not, this is just an excuse for why you're not going to give generously in the wealthy. These people are poverty stricken and they're given. And. And in the wealthiest culture in history, they're not.
Curt Harlow [00:25:52]:
Right?
Ray Johnston [00:25:53]:
So that's number one. Second is, Jesus talked more about money than heaven and hell combined. Third is a lot of books in the New Testament. Talk about Philippians is a thank you letter to a church because it's generous.
Curt Harlow [00:26:05]:
Yes.
Ray Johnston [00:26:06]:
So, and here he's literally going, look, we want you to give. I've sent Titus to get more money from you. I mean, like, read this stuff. And. And the reason that you hit a hot button with me is this. There's a church in Southern California, Mariners Church. Love the church, great pastor, all this kind of stuff. And so the other day, I was.
Ray Johnston [00:26:26]:
I was thinking about their pastor and who I like and have a lot of respect for. And I went, I wonder how they're doing. So I had looked it up on. I looked it up on my map, anyway, and then I clicked to think about Mariners. And then it has all these reviews of churches. Okay. And. And I really.
Curt Harlow [00:26:40]:
Yelp reviews.
Ray Johnston [00:26:41]:
Yes, all 1 to 5. And. And so it was like the usual 5, 5, 5, 5, 5,. 1. 5, 5, 5. Like, I met Christ there, my whole family met Christ there. I got off drugs there, I met my wife. Five, five, five, five, five, one.
Ray Johnston [00:26:54]:
5, 5, 5, 5, 5 1. There's no threes. And all the fives were God's working. Like, it's amazing. Our church is changing the world. You know, all this kind of stuff. Ones. Mm.
Ray Johnston [00:27:09]:
5, 5, 5, 5, 5 Pastor talk about money. 5, 5, 5 Pastor talk about money. All you have to do is read it and you find out.
Curt Harlow [00:27:18]:
People.
Ray Johnston [00:27:20]:
Some people, they do not want us to actually teach the whole Bible. They want us to ignore everything that causes them to sacrifice and be generous. And you look at this and you're going, wait a second. I actually think this passage says they first gave themselves to the Lord and then they gave.
Curt Harlow [00:27:42]:
Yes.
Ray Johnston [00:27:43]:
And that's.
Curt Harlow [00:27:44]:
I mean, that's the right order.
Ray Johnston [00:27:45]:
It's exact right order. And I think all those ones are people that haven't given themselves to the Lord yet. So they're not about to read the stuff that they find hard.
Curt Harlow [00:27:53]:
That's really good.
Ray Johnston [00:27:54]:
So you can tell, you set up.
Curt Harlow [00:27:55]:
Something I read while you were saying that, I thought of a line I'm gonna use. I said, I'm gonna tell my folks. I. I'm going to only mention money as much as the Bible does.
Ray Johnston [00:28:05]:
There you go.
Curt Harlow [00:28:07]:
And so if you don't want me to mention the money, I'll just guarantee it only as much. But the sad news for that is, man, it's in there. I. One of the things I said, Dean, a couple weeks ago during the offering, I said, we're going to talk about everything in this church. We're going to talk about culture, we're going to talk about sins, we're going to talk about failure, we're going to talk about marriages, we're going to talk about kids. And you can't talk about all that stuff without talking about money. You can't. You can't just put one of those aside.
Curt Harlow [00:28:29]:
All right, we are going. We're going to go a little.
Ray Johnston [00:28:33]:
Can I say one more?
Curt Harlow [00:28:34]:
Yeah, absolutely.
Ray Johnston [00:28:34]:
I was going to keep interrupted this, this. I became a Christian. I was an atheist.
Curt Harlow [00:28:40]:
Right.
Ray Johnston [00:28:40]:
Became a Christian. And this guy named Kent Tucker, world class guy, he just starts mentoring me and discipling me and these. He was, he was old, about five years older than I was. And we. So we start meeting for breakfast and we're going through the Bible. And he said a business guy had just left and I took his place at the restaurant? And he said, yeah. He said, yeah, that was an interesting conversation with this guy. He goes, because I'm mentoring him a little further ahead with him.
Ray Johnston [00:29:11]:
And I said, what happened? He goes, well, we're talking about each week there's a subject out of the Bible and I'm going to drive the Bible into people's lives. And he goes, this was the week I had to talk to this guy about generosity and tithing and sacrificial giving. And he said, the guy, he said, the guy stopped me and he said, well, hold on for a second. I'm okay with everything else, the prayer stuff, the, you know, holiness stuff, I'm okay with all that kind of stuff. He goes, there is no way I am going to give 10% of my money away. Because you're a pastor, you don't make much money. He said, for me, I just make too much money. He goes, I'm a business guy and I'm very successful and I, and I can't direct quote.
Ray Johnston [00:29:50]:
He says, I can't imagine giving that much money away. And my buddy Kent looks at him and says, that's okay. God has a solution for that. He goes, oh, good, what is it? And Kent said, I'll just pray that God reduces your income to the point where 10% doesn't look like much. Then you can finally be obedient to God. Amazing.
Curt Harlow [00:30:07]:
I like this guy.
Ray Johnston [00:30:08]:
And so then Ken, now I'm a college sophomore. I have no money. I had to put myself through college and graduate school. And I am a poverty, certain college student. And so Kent goes, all right, now we're talking about you. We may as well talk about you. You're going to obey God and tithe 10% or more or what? And he looked at me and goes, you know, you are much safer from God's point of view, giving God his first 10%, not stealing what the Bible says is God's in the first place. And trusting God than you ever will be stealing God's 10% and expecting God to bless your finances and your life.
Ray Johnston [00:30:40]:
And so like I've been a Christian, like not that long. I'm a poverty stricken. I went home and I went, okay, how much money do I have? $1.17. My first tithe was 17 cents. I looked at, put it in the offering thing, but I started tithing then. That was like 50 years ago and we haven't stopped, right? And then you basically go, and then above that you give, right? So this stuff is, I'll bet everybody's tuned off this by now, for anybody that's still here, I actually believe this. The minute you actually start doing what the Bible says in this area, your life becomes an adventure because God has to show up and answer his promises. I get more letters about this from people than any other.
Ray Johnston [00:31:28]:
Thing is, I took that challenge, I started honoring with myself. And let me tell you what God did.
Curt Harlow [00:31:33]:
It's pretty.
Dena Davidson [00:31:34]:
So good. Love it.
Curt Harlow [00:31:35]:
All right, D. We came to application.
Dena Davidson [00:31:37]:
Okay.
Curt Harlow [00:31:38]:
Time here. You know, the order of hermeneutics is simply this. We understand the context, we actually interpret the passage correctly, and then we got to apply it. So what's your advice? How are you going to apply this passage?
Dena Davidson [00:31:52]:
Okay. I think a particularly 21st century problem is that we have a real lack of awareness of the actual state of our finances.
Curt Harlow [00:31:59]:
So.
Dena Davidson [00:32:00]:
So most people are just completely crossing tithing and giving off their list because they're like, you have no idea. Like, I'm so deep in debt, there's no possible way. So here's my practical challenge to grow awareness for you that you do have the capacity to give. Maybe not yet a 10% set, although I recommend trusting God and just making that leap. Here's my to do for you. Every time you add to cart, I want you to go, and if you actually click purchase, I want you to go and give. Okay, so if you add to cart, spend $10 on Amazon, $10 to the church. Just match it.
Dena Davidson [00:32:35]:
Just match your add to cart for one particular week and see what you are capable in one week of giving. That would be my recommendation.
Curt Harlow [00:32:42]:
Andrew always says everyone's generous to themselves.
Dena Davidson [00:32:45]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:32:45]:
So we find he's got another great one that he reminded me when you were talking. He says there's three levels of giving. The Bible talks about tithings, offerings, and ouch. These guys are in the ouch.
Ray Johnston [00:32:56]:
Giving.
Curt Harlow [00:32:57]:
All right, I'm going to say mine then. Ray, I'm going to give you the last word here. I. We like to say around here, Bayside, reach wide, teach deep, or grow deep and unleash compassion. I think this church demonstrates that Paul to reach Macedonians took great risk. So my application question to you would be, who do you think's too far for God to reach in your life? And maybe they're like the Macedonian man. Maybe they're not too far. Maybe God's just waiting and maybe they'll become some of the greatest and most faithful Christians ever.
Curt Harlow [00:33:32]:
You think they're too far for God, like all the way in Macedonia, but actually God's got great plans for them. The second One, you know, don't underestimate the power of just mastering the message of Jesus. These Greek pagan, polytheistic unbelievers all of a sudden encounter the message of Jesus, and it transforms them dramatically to where they're demonstrating their devotion more than the. The wealthy group of flaky Christians in Corinth and, you know, all sorts of other churches that had a step up on them. And so, you know, sometimes we're staying the Bible weekend and week out, we're. We're turning a podcast like this. We're opening our Bible in the morning, we're going to church, and we think, does it really make a difference? It absolutely does. That truth really does transform us.
Curt Harlow [00:34:21]:
And then the last one is they unleash compassion. I said this at church last week. I said, the more you accumulate, the more you worry. Because when you accumulate, you have to maintain that. You have to store it, you have to protect it. And when you start giving it away, you're just. It's just the greatest, most freeing experience. I no longer have to maintain or store it.
Curt Harlow [00:34:46]:
I get to make someone happy with it. I lose a lot of sunglasses. I used to get really grumpy about this because you think, yeah, it's a nice pair of sunglasses. Someone finds it, they should ask around, who's. But people don't do that. They just put them on and wear them. They're like, I found some sunglasses. And then I decided to change my mind on that.
Curt Harlow [00:35:02]:
And I decided, instead of thinking I lost sunglasses and people didn't return them to me, I started thinking, I'm the giver of sunglasses. Everywhere I go, I'm shedding. I'm like the Johnny Appleseed of sunglasses. And honestly, I probably lost two pairs this year and just thought, well, praise God, I just blessed someone. That mental shift, as goofy as that illustration sounds, it just makes life better. It makes life fun. It makes life. Well, it makes life more Christlike.
Curt Harlow [00:35:31]:
So, yeah, find something to give away.
Dena Davidson [00:35:33]:
That's good.
Curt Harlow [00:35:34]:
All right, Pastor Ray, now we've given our answers. How do we really apply this? How would you apply this passage?
Ray Johnston [00:35:42]:
I think it's pretty obvious in here. If any of you are writing notes, I hope you're not doing that and driving. I would just say this. The whole issue is, know who you belong to. Know who you belong to. Know who your future belongs to. Know who your life belongs to. And he does that in verse five.
Ray Johnston [00:36:03]:
Cause he says, and he said, but they gave themselves first, so they knew who they belong to. And the only reason you know you belong to is not who you say you belong to, it's who you give yourself to. A lot of people going, I'm a Christian. No, you're not. You haven't given stuff to God. You haven't given your stuff to God. You haven't given your future to God. You haven't given your sexuality to God.
Ray Johnston [00:36:25]:
He goes, they first gave themselves to the Lord and now a lot of people stop that. They're going, okay, I'm giving myself forward. It's not biblical to stop there, okay? And then it says this. Then they gave themselves to us in keeping with God's will. And I think, and this is politically incorrect these days, but I think the God honoring whole biblical Christian life is you give yourself to God, but you also give yourself to a body of believers, a church family. Okay? And it's important, impossible to be a biblical Christian without doing both.
Curt Harlow [00:37:01]:
I agree.
Ray Johnston [00:37:02]:
There's no long ranger stuff. That church shopping and stopping, just stop that stuff. And that's what happened to me. The reason my life changed and kind of how it turned out was this church was phenomenal at challenging you to give yourself to God, not just become a Christian. I think I had received Christ, but it was about three or four months later at a camp where I went, oh, man, I didn't know I was supposed to give myself to God. Went on a walk up on this mountain at Canyon Dam. And that was. I literally went, okay, God, you got me.
Ray Johnston [00:37:35]:
I'm all in. Totally changed the course of my life. But fortunately, this church also, we're like, you cannot, you cannot fulfill the New Testament without giving yourself to God's people and the church.
Dena Davidson [00:37:48]:
So good.
Ray Johnston [00:37:48]:
That's the family. Okay? And. And that combination of giving yourself to God but also fully giving yourself to a body of believers is like, for me, it's like taking two live wires, hooking them together. And by the way, it's straight here. It's in the middle of what he talks about money. He veers off and he goes, well, the deeper issue is this. Give yourself to God, then give yourself to us. That's so good then.
Ray Johnston [00:38:16]:
Because I've given myself to God. My stuff isn't mine anymore. So the question isn't what am I going to give, it's what do I keep?
Curt Harlow [00:38:22]:
That's awesome.
Ray Johnston [00:38:23]:
So that this. It's funny when you. I love Bible studies, but at some point you're going, oh, man.
Curt Harlow [00:38:31]:
Right, right.
Ray Johnston [00:38:32]:
Most people rather talk about this than do it.
Curt Harlow [00:38:34]:
Right?
Ray Johnston [00:38:34]:
So.
Curt Harlow [00:38:35]:
Right. You know, you're really studying the Bible when It. You start getting convicted, you forget it's a podcast and you're just going, oh, same here. Hey, next week we are going to have Jason Cain on the show. You definitely want to tune in. By the way, when we were talking about all the Bible study and, and we were all. All the campus leaders were going, I don't know, Ray, we don't have enough time. Jason Kane was the biggest skeptic.
Curt Harlow [00:38:56]:
He was the biggest one. And we'll ask him about it next week.
Ray Johnston [00:39:00]:
Oh, yeah, make sure you tell him what Jason came and said to me after the Bible.
Curt Harlow [00:39:04]:
We'll get him. We'll get the whole story.
Ray Johnston [00:39:05]:
Oh, that's good.
Curt Harlow [00:39:06]:
He became the biggest convert and you'll get.
Dena Davidson [00:39:08]:
You mean about the Bible Conference?
Curt Harlow [00:39:09]:
The Bible conference, yes. It's a great story. We'll ask Jason. He'll tell it firsthand, you'll laugh, you'll love it, and you'll fall more in love with Jason because he's awesome. All right, we're going to be in 2 Corinthians, chapter 9. Then we'll go back to Ephesians. So one more week. That's Jason's week.
Curt Harlow [00:39:24]:
And in Ephesians, we're going to go on a special emphasis in chapter five and six on relationships. Everything. The Holy Spirit inspires Paul to write on relationships, and it's going to be every type of relationship. So if you want to strengthen your relationships, definitely get in for that. 2nd Corinthians 9 next week. And then we're going to do an emphasis on relationships. By the way, you guys have been doing a great job. I've been getting more and more comments.
Curt Harlow [00:39:51]:
Everyone's been super encouraging.
Ray Johnston [00:39:53]:
Our.
Curt Harlow [00:39:53]:
Our views are going up. So you are sharing. Keep doing that, my friend, because we're all going to get a lot more Jesusy when we study the Bible. So anyway, thanks for watching this week and we'll see you next week.