Curt Harlow [00:00:00]:
Hello my friends, and welcome to the Bible study podcast. I'm your host, Curt Harlow, one of the Bayside pastors around here and always I'm joined by the most incredibly brilliant, Dena Davidson. Dena Davidson, who works for a Thrive college students and a Thrive college graduate alumni thousand years ago and one of our best communicators at the Bayside system at a venture church we've got here, Cameron Wells. How you doing, Cameron?
Cameron Wells [00:00:25]:
I'm good. Good to be back.
Curt Harlow [00:00:26]:
Good to bring some angry Viking vibe to this passage.
Cameron Wells [00:00:29]:
I feel like my role here is like as if they put a regular person in the Olympics so you can see what it looks like.
Curt Harlow [00:00:37]:
Very good. You're approachable. Okay, good. Very, very good. All right, we are in Ephesians chapter 4. If you haven't been following along, I just go over to the YouTube or find that podcast, wherever podcast can be found and I would catch up for sure. But you won't miss out because we're kind of, kind of tread over some very dense passages that we. You guys, I in here talked about.
Curt Harlow [00:01:00]:
It was you, Kevin.
Dena Davidson [00:01:01]:
Kevin and Jason Dixon.
Curt Harlow [00:01:02]:
Yes, Jason Dixon's first time on the podcast. So if you, if you are not caught up, you'll understand. But I do encourage you to get the whole passage we are contextually to me, chapter four, you have to read verse one over and over again. So for three chapters, Paul has been saying, the love of God is higher and wider, deeper than you know. And I want your inner person to be strengthened by this love. I want the eyes of your heart open. I want you to understand this glorious, incredible, lavish story of salvation that is God's mercy and grace that has come together in Ephesus where Jewish and Gentile peoples are coming together. And then he flips from all that talk about how much God loves us and how brilliant God's salvation plan is, how gracious God's salvation plan is to this verse as a prisoner for the Lord.
Curt Harlow [00:01:59]:
Then I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. How do you live that worthy life? Be completely humble and gentle. Be patient bearing with one another in love. And then he goes on to give instructions that elevate our life to that worthy level of high calling. We're going to jump down to verse 14. We're going to slow it down. The. The theme here in verse 14 is not being spiritual or emotional or cultural infants anymore.
Curt Harlow [00:02:36]:
Not being just absolutely dependent, naive in our thinking in a way that causes us to be immature. So here's what he says. Then we will no longer be infants tossed back and forth by the waves and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. Instead speaking the truth in love, we will grow up to become in every respect, the mature body of him who is the head, that is Christ. From him, the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love as each part does its work. Now, I listened to the podcast last week. Great job, Dena. Maybe I should not show up more often.
Curt Harlow [00:03:23]:
And you said that this was one of your all time favorite passages here. And I would say chapter four is a huge highlight for me. I think in all of my pastoring, whether it be with my old college student days or here at Bayside, I have quoted these three verses as much as any part of the Bible, maybe more. So I got a two part question for you just going into this passage. First of all, it says, then we will no longer be inference, what is the then what is the thing that causes us to grow out of infancy? And why is this such an important passage to you? And if you said it last week, just say it again. Cause I wasn't here.
Dena Davidson [00:04:05]:
Yes, I love it. Okay. So broadly speaking, the then refers to how God took all of these gifts and gave them to his people in order to build up the body of Christ to reach unity. So it's saying like every single person has this gift from God who's within the church. And when we use these gifts to build up the body, only then will we no longer be infants. So the picture here is the body of Christ playing their specific role. Like that's the big theme for him.
Curt Harlow [00:04:36]:
Can I stop you there? Yes, because I have to make this point. And again, we covered this last week, but I gotta make this point. I think people read that verse 11. So Christ Himself gave apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, pastors, the teachers to equip the people for works of service, that the body of Christ may be built up no longer infants. I think they read that passage wrong.
Dena Davidson [00:04:58]:
Okay, how do you think the common reading is?
Curt Harlow [00:05:00]:
They read it like. I think most people read that. Like it's an enneagram test.
Dena Davidson [00:05:04]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:05:06]:
No, honestly, I think they come to it and they go, okay, oh me, which one am I? I'm I apostle, A prophet? What color is my parachute? Am I evangelist? Am I a pastor? Am I a teacher? And then also the other mistake is to think that Paul's being exhaustive here.
Dena Davidson [00:05:21]:
Yes.
Curt Harlow [00:05:22]:
Somehow this great dogma Gets built around, you know, you have to have each one of these gifts and only these gifts. I just don't. Paul's run on sentence lists are almost never exhaustive.
Dena Davidson [00:05:36]:
He has a different list elsewhere.
Curt Harlow [00:05:38]:
Yes, he has a different list. I think it should read like this. So Christ himself so loves the church and so wants the church to become mature. He gave us gift after gift after gift after gift.
Dena Davidson [00:05:52]:
That's right.
Curt Harlow [00:05:53]:
So the emphasis, emphasis here, it's not on my gift, but on how much Christ has done for us in those gifts. Yes.
Dena Davidson [00:05:59]:
That's so good.
Curt Harlow [00:06:00]:
And also if you think you're an apostle and you're arrogant, you're probably not. Because the chief characteristic of an apostle is they're humble.
Dena Davidson [00:06:06]:
Right, exactly.
Cameron Wells [00:06:07]:
And possibly in prison.
Curt Harlow [00:06:08]:
Possibly.
Cameron Wells [00:06:09]:
It's like I talked about this last week. It's like if you've ever been to a three year old's birthday party, we have a six year old and a three year old. So I've been to a lot of three and four year old birthday parties. Every kid at that party every time thinks it's their birthday. Yeah, this is how we read scripture. No matter where I'm at, I think this is for me.
Curt Harlow [00:06:25]:
Brilliant.
Dena Davidson [00:06:25]:
That's so good.
Curt Harlow [00:06:26]:
The don't read it like you're a four year old birthday party. A tender hermeneutic rule, honey.
Cameron Wells [00:06:32]:
This is her birthday. We just celebrated you a month ago.
Curt Harlow [00:06:36]:
They want to blow out the candle every time. Every time.
Cameron Wells [00:06:38]:
All the gifts are for them.
Curt Harlow [00:06:40]:
Okay, Dena, I interrupted you just because I wanted to make that point. But you're absolutely right. All these gifts and how we respond to them is what brings us out of infancy. Tell me again though, why is this passage so important?
Dena Davidson [00:06:52]:
Yeah. Well, I think I have to tell you a little bit about little Dena. Like little Dena planted a church in northern Nevada. I was 9 years old when my family moved to Northern Nevada, which is actually Cam and I grew up in.
Curt Harlow [00:07:04]:
The same church plant, Nevada. I.
Cameron Wells [00:07:07]:
We made it out.
Dena Davidson [00:07:08]:
We made it out. It's exactly right. So we planted this church in a place that was only 5% church, not Christian, like churched. So 95% of people had really just no religious connection. And it was a dark, hard place to be sowing the gospel. But I remember at 6am in the morning driving to go set up church because that's what you do when you're planting a church. And I remember listening to these messages from this pastor about the power of the church and how God has essentially entrusted to his people now that he's ascended, he's given them the spirit and these gifts to go do what he wants to do in the world. And I remember just being 9 years old and my eyes being open to the fact that I have a job in this life.
Dena Davidson [00:07:56]:
And it's not the Denash. I am part of something that is God's plan to rescue the world and to carry the gospel into every corner. So when I read this passage as a prisoner for the Lord, then I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. That's how I like to wake up every single morning. My calling is not to make coffee. My calling is not to get my to do list done. My calling is actually not even to just parent my little children in my household or to be a good spouse. Fundamentally, my calling is to be a disciple of Jesus Christ and build his church to reach the world, part of which is to be a great spouse, part of which is to make some coffee so I can go do those things.
Curt Harlow [00:08:37]:
Sure.
Dena Davidson [00:08:37]:
But that's the calling. And so to me, like, I literally wake up in this morning and every morning, and that's my heartbeat. I want to live a life worthy of the calling that I have received.
Curt Harlow [00:08:47]:
Dena, you're a better human than anyone. Like, if I was 9 year old little Curt planting a church with my, I'd be like, why do I have to get up at 5 to be here at 6 to put up a vinyl banner?
Dena Davidson [00:08:58]:
We were on our way to get donuts. Like, that was the first stop. So it really was.
Curt Harlow [00:09:02]:
Good response, Good response by you. And absolutely correct that once you start living into that higher calling, it does, it does put a different filter over every single decision you do. All right, Kim, let's break this down. We'll no longer be infants because we've leaned into all the gifts Christ has given us. And because we're not infants, we're not tossed back and forth by the waves. Last year, we went on a trip and with our small group and the small group leader, guy named Mark, he rented a boat and it was the worst day on the sea ever. And literally everyone on the boat, except for like, three of us that took Dramamine, were passed out or throwing up. So whenever I read this, I see that tossed back and forth by the waves, blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.
Curt Harlow [00:09:56]:
What is Paul worried about here? Why does he include this very strong language about deceitful schemers?
Cameron Wells [00:10:04]:
Yeah, I think people are out There trying to lead you astray. When I was 19, I got a call from the IRS that told me I had $10,000 in back taxes owed. And I almost drove my car off the road because I was freaking out, had a panic attack, I was losing my mind. And I finally called our family tax guy and he was like, Cameron, the. The IRS will never call you. They only communicate via certified mail. But there's people out there that are trying to take advantage of you 100%. And what Pa does not want is people falling prey to fraudulent tax schemes.
Cameron Wells [00:10:37]:
Yes, he doesn't want his people led astray. But it is interesting because he says, you know, we'll not be infants. But then Matthew 18, Jesus teaches that we should be childlike. So he doesn't want us to be infantile in our understanding of doctrine or theology, but the posture of our lives should remain like that of a child. So, so mentally, spiritually, emotionally, we have to grow up, but we can't get so far removed from 9 year old Dena from, from kid in me that that runs to God for my protection and refuge. But he wants his people to understand his words so we know his character.
Curt Harlow [00:11:14]:
That's a great question to ask because it does seem like I love it when we study the Bible and ask the hardest question. Yeah, it does seem like a contradiction. Jesus says, you must be like this one. You must to Nicodemus. He says, you have to become an infant again, born again. And he is talking about humility, independence and extreme contriteness. But that's completely different than what Paul's talking about. I think what Paul's talking about here is this idea of discernment.
Curt Harlow [00:11:42]:
So we teach people to have faith. You know, as pastors and leaders, we'd say, go have faith, go have faith. We're very big on that. But we don't teach, go have discernment which faith is the positive risk taking in the will of God. And discernment is the positive conservative rejection of faults and lack of risk taking. As I follow the spirit of God and I think right here he's saying you especially to the gentile believers that have become Christians and don't have the same biblical undergirding as the Jewish converts. He's saying, you gotta be very, very careful here because false teachers are always attracted to authentic Christianity. False teachers.
Curt Harlow [00:12:35]:
So sometimes today you'll see on the Internet, people are like, oh, I'm starting this podcast like we're doing and, and I'm going to call out all the false teachers in Christianity because we're in a season now where there's so many false teachers in America. And I gotta say, from day one, we're. We're not.
Dena Davidson [00:12:55]:
Not.
Curt Harlow [00:12:55]:
It's not worse than it's been. It's just the same it's always been. And also, no one should be surprised that to find false teachers emerge within the Athenic Church or to be codependently attracted to the authentic church. When I was in campus ministry, there was an organization. We'll call them the Boston Church of Christ because that's what it was their name. And they were absolutely emotionally manipulative. God loves the people in the organization, but the organization itself to this day is a harmful, harmful organization. They would come to our student meetings and they would stand outside the student meetings, and when we released, they would ask 350 of my students, do you want to join a Bible study in the original Greek with the goal of deceiving them into thinking they didn't know Christ and could only know Christ through the Boston Church of Christ? So from day one, this has been.
Curt Harlow [00:13:54]:
This has been a problem. It's problem at your church, problem at my campus, problem in Thrive College. And we should always expect this problem now. He gives the counter antidote here. Instead speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become, in every respect, mature body of him who's the head that is Christ. Dena, please tell me, how does one speak the truth in love?
Dena Davidson [00:14:18]:
I'm still working on it, Curt. I'm great at speaking the truth, but that, the love part, I was just with my small group. I've been in the small group for years, and I spoke some truth and I think it was truth, but man, I didn't do it in love. And so, yeah, I'd say there are two kinds of. You taught me this, Curt. There are two kinds of people in the world. There are people that are truth people, and there are people who are grace people. Another word for that is love people.
Dena Davidson [00:14:47]:
And knowing which one you are is the key to practicing this scripture correctly. You, you have taught me so I am a truth person. So I need. I'm going to probably know the truth. I'm going to know exactly what Cameron's flaws are and how to, you know, pinpoint it so that you know.
Curt Harlow [00:15:03]:
Yeah, you share. You shared them with me.
Dena Davidson [00:15:04]:
Yes, I told you, I gave you the bullet list.
Cameron Wells [00:15:06]:
Be the last 10 minutes of the podcast.
Dena Davidson [00:15:08]:
I'll go over them detail. But love is asking, is this the right time? Is this the right agenda? Is this like in line with Your agenda, Jesus, for what is in Cameron's life right now? Or is this, like, me just wanting to say, like, I noticed something wrong in you or. Or even asking, like, is this the right way? Is it face to face? Is it soft language? Sometimes it needs to be harsh language because that's the most loving way to say it, because it's the only way it will get through. It's just literally considering that golden rule, you know, to love your neighbor as yourself. And so is this the way that I would want to receive this information about myself? And if the answer is no, then you're not yet doing it in love.
Curt Harlow [00:15:50]:
Yeah. So, Cam, are you a. Your default nature? Are you a truth teller or are you a grace giver?
Cameron Wells [00:15:58]:
What is grace? All truth. All gas.
Curt Harlow [00:16:01]:
See, I'm all truth. We needed one lover on this podcast. Yeah. I always, always want to just walk right in there and go, I've seen this about you. And I've seen this about you.
Dena Davidson [00:16:10]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:16:10]:
And so when you're trying to modify that instinct. And by the way, I think this is a lot of pastors.
Dena Davidson [00:16:17]:
Sure.
Curt Harlow [00:16:17]:
Is the insight that gives you the ability to communicate. The Bible also could be a weapon you use against people if you're not contrite of heart. So what do you. Let's say that you've got a staff member that's on your team over there and you need to bring some correction to them. What do you actually do to modify that instinct of. I'm just going to say the truth straight out.
Cameron Wells [00:16:43]:
Yeah, I think. I actually think, Curt, it was something that I learned from you. You told me one time, there's a group of us and you're talking about correcting or, you know, trying to move people along. And you said, what if at the end of the day, all they believed was that you loved them?
Dena Davidson [00:17:00]:
Wow.
Cameron Wells [00:17:00]:
So I think about that question a lot whenever I go into a conversation or a situation like that.
Curt Harlow [00:17:04]:
That's really good.
Cameron Wells [00:17:07]:
Brilliant.
Curt Harlow [00:17:07]:
Brilliant.
Cameron Wells [00:17:08]:
And. But that's the question.
Curt Harlow [00:17:10]:
I don't remember saying it, but it's really, really good.
Cameron Wells [00:17:12]:
Well, now it's attributed to you. And so that's what I. That's what I'm going to think about. And my. My driving, you know, the driving force is not, I need them to get to see this or I need them to fix this. It's like, at the end of the day, I need them to know that I love them and I'm for them very. That's going to open them up more to correction or rebuke or but if I fail there, whatever I say, it doesn't matter after that.
Curt Harlow [00:17:37]:
Yeah. Pastor Ray said to me once, how do people feel after they've spoken to you? It's a similar question there. I think that really helps me. The biggest one for me is timing. So I would. When I see something going wrong, that really pushes my buttons, that really I. I'm high alerted to that. You're not treating that person well.
Curt Harlow [00:18:00]:
You're not leading that area in a loving, kind way. And it's funny, it will oftentimes be that I see them not treating other people well, and then I go treat them poorly. And I'll say to myself, is now the best time to bring this correction? Because almost always, patiently, prayerfully, pausing will make me better and it will also make them less shamed. So if you find, you know, I had this great guy in my life, Ron Urkes, and he was spectacular at this. And we just went through Matthew 18 with every conflict out of my life. He said, kurt, this is not just about confronting sin. This is a lot of human nature. And he goes, go to them alone.
Curt Harlow [00:18:42]:
Go to them alone. And why is that? Because then they'll be less shame. They'll be more likely to see it. Then if they get what you're saying, celebrate it. You're not trying to win a debate. Debate's gonna just make them go into their position harder. You're trying to help someone move forward. And then the other one he would talk about is Galatians 6:1.
Curt Harlow [00:19:03]:
If you who are spiritual, catch anyone in a sin, confront them carefully, being sure that you're not being caught in the same sin. And it's a little paraphrase y there. But I can't tell you the amount of times I've said to myself, that person's being mean to those people, so I'll go be mean to them. And it's exactly Galatians 6:1. I need to go be careful here. I'm going to handle them with care and carefulness.
Cameron Wells [00:19:34]:
Well, it's the classic. We often struggle in other people with what we struggle with. So when I see somebody who does what I do, it makes me crazy. And so that's another thing is a great question to ask is like, do I care about this just because it's something that I do?
Curt Harlow [00:19:49]:
Right? I would say probably about 80% of the advice I give people when they come to me and say, I've got a conflict in my marriage, or I got a conflict with my kid, or I got a conflict with my co worker Is this phrase speak the truth in love? Because oftentimes on the lover's side, it's, I don't want to create a mess. I don't want this to get messy. I'm going to actually just tolerate this and I'll just kind of grin and bear it, and that is equally as not nice. And then on the truth, you know, we talked about the truth side. So you go, if this phrase is so Holy Spirit, brilliant. If you just say in your mind, is it really true or is it just a quirk I don't like? But is this true? Is this true main and plain, Biblically? Can I show where it's true in the Bible? And then am I saying it in the most loving way possible to be said without being clear, without being unclear? I mean, yes, if someone's on fire.
Dena Davidson [00:20:53]:
The most loving thing is to scream at that person that they're on fire. Right. But it's very rare that that tone is needed.
Cameron Wells [00:21:01]:
What if they're metaphorically on fire?
Curt Harlow [00:21:03]:
Now, I will say next week, next week it's going to be you and Mark, right?
Dena Davidson [00:21:07]:
Yes.
Curt Harlow [00:21:08]:
We are talking.
Dena Davidson [00:21:09]:
I'll let him yell at me.
Curt Harlow [00:21:10]:
We're talking about my favorite little part of anywhere in the Bible, teaching on angry. So it's definitely good. Okay, let's go ahead and dive into the last part.
Dena Davidson [00:21:20]:
One, one thought.
Curt Harlow [00:21:21]:
Yeah, go.
Dena Davidson [00:21:22]:
Okay. In the age of social media, what. What is speaking the truth in love look like? Because I. I think that not doing it on social media, the algorithm is. Is literally geared towards controversy. And so I think if you want to be popular on Instagram, you will lean into the probably the truth instead of the love part. So do you have any thoughts about, like, what does that look like? To be a faithful Christian witness engaging in online conversations, wanting to honor this verse, but also recognizing that if you want to be viewed by more people, there's gotta be an edge and, you know, some controversy in there, because that's what the algorithm's gonna pick up on.
Curt Harlow [00:22:02]:
Yeah. Here's my hot take on this. And I am going to violate it as I say it, because I'm going to rebuke some people and this is going online. But I don't think any rebuke online works. I don't think it ever works. I don't think anyone that's getting online and saying, this church is wrong because of this. I don't think that works. I don't think it helps.
Curt Harlow [00:22:23]:
I think it's a bad witness. I don't. You know, and people say all the time. Well, you know, it's true. And this isn't Matthew 18. Matthew 18 is between. Between. Okay, I guess I could say that.
Curt Harlow [00:22:34]:
But I would say that Paul's rebuking in Corinth. Paul's correcting throughout all the epistles. Jesus correcting. It was so much more personal than what we're doing by broadcasting what we think other people are doing wrong. So no one has changed their political view by reading comments. No one has changed their worldview by reading comments or content. Many, many, many people have been pushed further into the wrong thinking that they already have by reading and listening to opponents online. So you're actually just making them defend themselves even more than actually solving the problem.
Curt Harlow [00:23:20]:
So I am. I'm really like, like, you know what online comments are for is, oh, your new baby is so cute, Aunt Susan. I miss you so much. Happy birthday. These are really good ways to connect. That makes it. It's easier to connect. But I would like to tell everyone that supports such and such candidate, you are the most unbiblical humans that ever lived, and I am the most biblical, because I don't support that candidate.
Curt Harlow [00:23:47]:
I support this candidate. Even if that's true.
Dena Davidson [00:23:49]:
True.
Curt Harlow [00:23:50]:
A lot of times it is. It's not effective. I don't think it's the heart of real confrontation in the Bible. So, anyway, I saw a great line.
Cameron Wells [00:24:00]:
This week that says, if you have a problem with me, call me. If you don't have my number, you don't know me well enough to have a problem with me.
Curt Harlow [00:24:06]:
God, that's great.
Cameron Wells [00:24:08]:
But, yeah, I agree. I don't think I've been in the depths of a lot of comment sections, and I've never seen a comment say, you know what? You're right, and I'm gonna change my whole worldview.
Curt Harlow [00:24:16]:
Yes.
Cameron Wells [00:24:16]:
And I heard a pastor say recently, you know, I get. I. I try to be in the habit of not asking questions that Jesus wouldn't ask people. And a lot of times, comment sections, another great way comment sections are, are asking people questions or challenging them in a way that Jesus never would.
Curt Harlow [00:24:33]:
So I think the comment section and. And a lot of these more confrontational Christian, you know, content is about people searching for significance. It's not really about, I want to correct this problem in the church. It's about searching for significance. I have figured out what's wrong, and it's a real temptation. You know, again, even as I say this, I want to be careful because I haven't seen every one of those podcasts, and I Haven't listened to all of that content. I could definitely be wrong in a case by case basis. But you know, our content should be in Christ, not our ability to be the truth teller for all of the church.
Curt Harlow [00:25:16]:
We're running quick out of time and I want to get to this last part because it's to me, this verse 16 probably drives more of my thinking on church growth than any other verse in the New Testament. This every single staff meeting I'm planting a new campus in Auburn. We're a year and a half old. Every staff meeting I think about this verse. Every sermon I think about this verse. And I'll just read it for you again and then I'd like both of you to comment on this from Kim. Jesus, the whole body joined and held together by every supporting ligament. The older I get, the more supporting ligaments is a great metaphor for me.
Curt Harlow [00:25:57]:
Grows and builds itself up in love as each part heart does its work. What is Paul saying and why is he saying it?
Dena Davidson [00:26:08]:
I think he is saying that you have a place and a purpose and if you are not in your place doing your purpose, then the whole body suffers. And what a great word for all of us. Like God needs us in our place living out our purpose. Otherwise the body of Christ is suffering.
Cameron Wells [00:26:29]:
I a couple summers ago went through a lot of bodybuilding documentaries and one of the things that they talk about with steroids is that when you take steroids, your muscles and your mass grows so quickly that it actually outpaces your supporting ligaments and tendons. And that's why you're at a greater risk of injury and you will literally tear the muscle off the bone because the supporting ligaments have not had time to catch up to the rapid growth. So when there's uneven growth in the body of Christ, church splits can happen. Brokenness is more likely to happen. Like we, we all play a part and we all bring a stabilizing function to the body.
Curt Harlow [00:27:06]:
That's really good. You're on fire today, Cam. Here's the way I think about it and this because my brain, I think is this very simple brain. How should the church, the community of believers in Auburn, California, the that call themselves Baysiders. How should it grow? Well, there's two ways. One, first of all, it has to be in love. And specifically in love in terms of the love of Christ. He's our source, he's our head.
Curt Harlow [00:27:35]:
He's the guy that owns the church. He's the holding it all together. So the first thing we have to have is the love of Christ, the love of Christ. We could do everything right. We have all the great Christmas services and great Easter services and great small groups and rooted for 10 weeks. We do all that. And if it isn't based in an affection for Christ and the height and depth and width of his love, if he's not the head and source of all that love, and we're not loving people the way he loved, it doesn't work. Eventually what happens is that will.
Curt Harlow [00:28:09]:
Even if it's effective strategically, it'll fall over. So, number one, the love of Christ. And so I ask myself all the time, is our church loving? Am I lovingly leading them? Is this staff loving? Is our volunteers loving? Was that sermon loving? And is that love not just ooey gooey love, it's the love of Christ that we're about here and then second, as each part does its work. So my job as the pastor is to get everyone to realize that I cannot succeed in my calling unless they do their calling, and they cannot succeed in their calling unless I do my calling. And we are not independent of each other. We're not codependent with each other. We're interdependent in the brilliance of the body of Christ theology. We have great purpose and significance.
Curt Harlow [00:29:03]:
We're valuable. We are essential. And I absolutely cannot succeed without others helps. And so this, it's humility and significance in the same thing. So I'm going. I don't have to have 50,000 church growth strategies. I have two. Two growth strategies.
Curt Harlow [00:29:22]:
We will grow wildly and healthily and be massively fruitful.
Cameron Wells [00:29:27]:
And you are.
Curt Harlow [00:29:28]:
If we love like Christ loved, and the love of Christ is our source, and then each one, we get more and more people out of the stands and into the game doing what they're called to do.
Dena Davidson [00:29:39]:
So good.
Curt Harlow [00:29:40]:
And I found it true. You do those two things, you start growing, people start getting saved, small groups come alive. And so I just. I want to get rid of every church. Planter three ring binder. They're all online now. Okay. Oh, my gosh, we're running out of time.
Curt Harlow [00:29:56]:
Okay, let's apply this. Dena, if you were to tell someone out there to make sure they do verses 14 through 16 in a way that gives them that higher calling life, what practically should they do?
Dena Davidson [00:30:10]:
Yes. Well, myself, in the course of this podcast, being convicted by the several times this week, I definitely spoke the truth, but it was not in love. Sometimes when I just feel like I've gotten that wrong a few times, I do something where I just practice, practice the discipline of silence. And it's an ancient Christian spiritual discipline. And it's basically. It's not where you don't talk necessarily, but it's where you just commit to not speaking unless it's necessary. And so, for example, when I go into sermon prep, I'm not gonna speak unless I'm directly asked a question. And the best thing about this spiritual discipline is it helps me see that my words are not my only weapon to get the truth out there.
Dena Davidson [00:30:56]:
I have this whole other side of being a TR Truth person, which is that I can always talk to God, who has so much more power than my words ever do. So in, in place of me speaking, I will be speaking, speaking to humans. I'll be speaking to the God of heaven in sermon prep and just saying like God, help Mark to rightly divide that truth. God, give Curt the illustration that he needs. I feel like we're missing it on this verse. I pray that Cameron would see that. And I the whole time, instead of trying to control other people through my word and get the truth out there, I'll be trying to ask God to do that on my behalf. And it just writes something in me every time.
Dena Davidson [00:31:33]:
So I would say taking a day or maybe even a few days and practicing the spiritual discipline of silence is a remarkable way to make sure you're speaking the truth. In love.
Curt Harlow [00:31:44]:
There's so much I could say about silence, but I'm not going to. Cam, how do we apply this passage?
Cameron Wells [00:31:50]:
I, you know, I think, think a lot of times we probably venture into places that we shouldn't go. But I'm going to go with any. Anytime I feel like something needs to be said or I need to lean in and I don't because it's uncomfortable. Just if I'm feeling uncomfortable, just wade in. Do it in love. But oftentimes I just kind of hesitate and then the moment goes by or the season goes by. And I think just like learning to, to live in the uncomfortability, but leading with love.
Curt Harlow [00:32:16]:
Absolutely. Yeah. If you're sensing there's something amiss there. There's. There's something amiss there.
Cameron Wells [00:32:22]:
Yeah. And. And not addressing it or running away from it usually only makes it worse.
Curt Harlow [00:32:26]:
We're going to get in that later. When he says, do not let the sun go down. Your anger, it's, it's. And it gives the devil a foothold when you do it next week. Okay, here's what I would say is what is your part? What is your part? I think we live in a Christianity where we're really good at evaluating other people's parts. That pastor do good, that worship leader do good, did my small group leader do good? And we are oftentimes not asking ourselves, what is my part? So I have this guy, I'll call him Bobby because that's his name at the Auburn campus. And he has been a very generous, very committed baysider over the years. But he never volunteered.
Curt Harlow [00:33:06]:
And when we started the campus, his wife said to him, listen, they need volunteers, and we're both going to volunteer. And she'd volunteered a lot. She was great. And she said, so you're going to show up and you're going to help me be an usher. And one of the hardest jobs in a church plant, by the way, is ushering, because new people come late and kids and check in, and we're in a facility that's not great. And about two months into it, he took me aside and he said, I got to apologize for not volunteering before this, because this has been incredible. He goes, I've met so many great friends. I get up and I'm excited to come to church every single weekend.
Curt Harlow [00:33:48]:
And I feel like I'm not just sitting there watching good things happen. I'm helping make them happen. His whole spiritual life and relationships were blown apart in a good way. We are afraid that if we serve, it will add a burden to our life when the truth is our life is serving. You cannot say, I'm a Christian, but I don't serve. Our life is serving. We serve the ultimate servant. So sit down, say to yourself, all right, what is my part? And if you don't know it, be like that Little League team where the coach gets the players to play every position so you can understand every position.
Curt Harlow [00:34:27]:
Just jump in one place and then go jump in another. And I guarantee you, you in love as you do your part, you'll see a lot of growth.
Dena Davidson [00:34:35]:
So good.
Curt Harlow [00:34:37]:
All right, man, I'm loving this Ephesians study. Don't forget to join us next week. We got the incredible. Mark Clark and Dena Davidson will be here. We're going to keep going in chapter four, please. Would you actually tell some folks I've been getting on the YouTube site where we have some clips there. You guys are leaving some great comments. Thank you for doing this.
Curt Harlow [00:34:57]:
That, as always, you know, like, share, follow, subscribe, tattoo, you know, make sure you're spreading the word, because the more we study the Bible, the better we are at following Christ.