Curt Harlow [00:00:00]:
Hello, my friend, and welcome back to the Bible Study Podcast. This is probably the best of the new version of the Bible Study podcast we've ever had, because, of course, I'm joined by my old partner in crime when we first started the Bible Study podcast. Back. Back in. I don't know if you remember this thing that was called Covid, and it's Andrew McCourt with us, everyone.
Andrew McCourt [00:00:21]:
Good to be here, Curt. Pleasant memories.
Curt Harlow [00:00:23]:
Pleasant memories.
Andrew McCourt [00:00:24]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:00:24]:
Just really. We had a lot. We had a blast with that.
Andrew McCourt [00:00:26]:
Yeah, Yeah. I met a need. It really did.
Curt Harlow [00:00:28]:
Yeah. Yes, you. It did. And you were quite good at it each and every episode. I was shocked at how much about the Bible you actually know.
Andrew McCourt [00:00:36]:
I read it a time or two.
Curt Harlow [00:00:37]:
You did a good job. So, Andrew, talk to us about. What do you do? This is the podcast where we go in depth over the message that's being shared and the passage that's being taught at every Bayside campus. Kind of explain to us what your role is kind of right now, what you're doing, because you're doing something pretty cool.
Andrew McCourt [00:00:54]:
Yeah, yeah. I'm like global preaching pastor, so that means I'm bouncing around the different campuses, and it really is a privilege because you get to actually tell the next campus what was happening in the last campus and every campus what's going on from a global point of view. So you get to teach God's word, but also you get to slightly, you know, look at the. Have an exposition of the world of Bayside as well. So it's super exciting.
Curt Harlow [00:01:26]:
Awesome. And as Dena will attest, Andrew is one of my favorite people. When we get into our sermon prep and the content he brings, the outlines he brings. And of course, we're also joined, as always, by the frontal lobe of the Bible Study podcast and Thrive College, Dena Davidson. Dena, I'm going to go through the context here. You tell me what you would add into that. Read the passage, and we'll shoot it to Andrew for the first comment. But we're in Ephesians 6, so we're getting very to the end, actually just two passages left in this journey in the book of Ephesians.
Curt Harlow [00:02:02]:
I think at this point, it's good to go right all the way back to the first three chapters and say for three chapters, Paul barely exhorted anyone to change behaviors. He completely doubled down on this idea. We are beneficiaries of the riches of grace. We are predestined to become adopted. We are to measure the unmeasurable love of God. We are to know the Unknowable love of God. In other words, grace, grace, grace, love, love, love. Then in chapter four, he switches to instruction.
Curt Harlow [00:02:32]:
He says, live a life worthy of the calling we've received. How do you live a worthy life? In gentleness and humility. And then he says, stop being bitter. Stop stealing. A lot of instruction to the individual there. Then he turns it to every sort of relationship in the household. Husbands, wives. Go back and look at all those episodes.
Curt Harlow [00:02:52]:
Then his massive, incredible sermon illustration, the sermon illustration that every preacher wants. He's looking at this Roman guard and he says, guys, here's how you apply this whole book of Ephesians. And of course, he goes through the armor of God. And then he ends with two. Very not surprising if you know Paul, but a lot of people would make the mistake of not ending this way. He goes back to. To the idea of prayer and back to the idea of spirit empowered prayer and a spirit empowered life. That's the passage we're going to look at today.
Curt Harlow [00:03:27]:
And then hopefully we'll get an episode in about Tus.
Andrew McCourt [00:03:32]:
Tus.
Curt Harlow [00:03:33]:
Tus. We had. We had a big debate in sermon prep on how you say it correct, and now I'm more messed up than ever. So the point about it is he has this little section, three verses on prayer, three powerful verses, and then we end with the unsung hero. That'll be a future episode. Dena, what did I miss in there? Anything?
Dena Davidson [00:03:52]:
I would just say the immediate context is the armor of God, and there's the temptation to think, okay, well, he's done talking about the armor of God. This is the end of the battle. But this is very much still in the battle context. And so this passage, we're still very much in the battle of not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, the authorities, and the dominion of Satan over this world. So I think that's the only context point I would add.
Curt Harlow [00:04:23]:
Read the passage and then let's get.
Dena Davidson [00:04:24]:
Into it and pray in the spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord's people. Pray also for me that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.
Curt Harlow [00:04:49]:
Okay, Andrew, as we ask our guest every week on this, you're in your Bible study mode at home. You're not preaching. You're just studying the Bible. As Andrew McCourt from Belfast Ireland, how would you approach this passage and what's your initial thoughts on Paul's intent here?
Andrew McCourt [00:05:07]:
Well, what I love about it and the context just said it's me sitting at home. And actually, I think this is written to me at home. You know, it is to the whole church when they come together, that they would pray. But how should I pray? Cause Paul, as well, didn't have the whole church when he was praying. He was in a prison cell and he had these Roman guards, so he was praying by himself. But how did he pray? And he says this here. We pray in the Spirit. So what we loved about chapter five, there's 22 verses talking about submission and how submission is complicated and submission is difficult.
Andrew McCourt [00:05:37]:
Submission in the real world, you know, one day another. Wives to husbands, slaves to master, kids to parents. And we've grappled with that in the Bible study. But I actually see this as another part of submission, which is pray in the spirit. So normally, when we hear pray, and this is how I teach this passage, and this is how I apply it to myself, when we hear the word pray, guilt descends. It's like hearing the word diet. It's like hearing the word gym. You know, what's going on? I know, I should go.
Curt Harlow [00:06:07]:
But budget in the spirit.
Andrew McCourt [00:06:08]:
Yeah, I budget. I mean, you just go, yeah, it's a good thing. But pray. But Paul, that, for me, it actually goes back to verse 10. He said, Be strong. Now, if you hear those words, be strong. Well, for some Californians and some people listening to us across the world, that actually appeals to them. It appeals to some undealt sort of fleshish issue in their lives where God, of course, I'm strong and I'm resilient and I know how to fight, and I know how to run the stock market, and I know how to start business, which is wrong in itself if out of our own strength.
Andrew McCourt [00:06:37]:
And other people get. They hear, be strong. And they're going, oh, my goodness. I've just come out of a divorce. I'm a soccer mom. Life's really tough. I've lost my business. I'm feeling the pinch at this moment in time, and you're asking me to dig deep.
Andrew McCourt [00:06:49]:
He said, no, Be strong in the Lord.
Curt Harlow [00:06:51]:
Yes.
Andrew McCourt [00:06:52]:
It's so, so important. That little caveat, it changes everything finally. I mean, that's. This whole thing here. It's just, how do I land this? You know? The shift is about to change in the prison cell. I need to get this letter finished. You know, Tychicus is waiting to get it off. And we gotta get it in the mail, we gotta get it to Ephesus and he's gone, I gotta land this.
Andrew McCourt [00:07:11]:
So finally, be strong in the Lord, but. And then he goes into the armor of God and it's almost like another piece of weapon. And pray. Yes, but it's beautiful in the Spirit. And at that moment in time, it is liberating, absolutely liberating. Pray in the power of the Spirit. So the way I teach this is we pray with all authority and a brand new authority. Pray in the Spirit and then it's going to be on all occasions, but it's all authority.
Andrew McCourt [00:07:39]:
Praying in the Spirit. I think at this point we actually need to jump then to Romans chapter 8, because Romans chapter 8 talks about this as well. Again, it's Paul writing to a great church in Rome that he's never been to. But he says this. We do not know what we ought to pray for. Well, that's me, even as a pastor. Curt and Dena, there's times in life and you know this. I know what the problem is, but I don't know how to pray about it.
Curt Harlow [00:08:02]:
Most of the time, for me.
Andrew McCourt [00:08:04]:
Most of the time, you know, and we're chatty people, we're all communicators, we know what to say. But there's times I'm lost for words and I need the Spirit. But he says this, but pray. But the Spirit himself intercedes for us. And there's something again to talk about this. The Holy Spirit is not, you know, we're not Jedis with force. The Holy Spirit is a person and he's powerful, all powerful. And he is a presence in our lives.
Andrew McCourt [00:08:28]:
And he is with. I mean, He Himself, the third person of the Trinity, is with us and helping every believer in this complex thing called prayer. Because prayer is so difficult outside of the Holy Spirit, but in the Spirit, it changes everything. But we do not know how to pray. But the Spirit himself intercedes through for us through wordless groans. Again. Sometimes I'm like, there's times I sit down. I don't know what that means, but I sit down and go.
Curt Harlow [00:08:59]:
Lord.
Andrew McCourt [00:09:01]:
And it's almost like these groans. And I'm sitting there. You know what Jesus said this. When my father sees you in the closet. When my father sees you. Not always hears you. Sometimes we're there and I'm just there. I'm lost.
Andrew McCourt [00:09:19]:
But I think it's at those moments and times that he groans. I remember my friend, good friend, Paul Mansoe, who was from Ghana. And when I was At Bible College, I would say, he had big influence on me in prayer. And he went full Ghanaian in prayer. And he went full Pentecostal, too. He would lie on the floor. He was 40 years old, and his church was already 2,000 people. So we were all like.
Andrew McCourt [00:09:42]:
I mean, I preached maybe once. This guy was a seasoned leader. But when he prayed, there was something. I watched him. I went, I need to learn to pray like that. Paul would lie on his back. He would have a leg in the air. It was almost like an antenna.
Andrew McCourt [00:09:59]:
And he would groan. There would be, like, groans. At first I was like, what is happening over there? But I'm going, this guy's just interceding. He's praying. The Spirit is praying through him. And it was actually. It wasn't just a cultural thing. Oh, he's Ghanaian.
Andrew McCourt [00:10:12]:
That's the way that we do it. I'm from Ireland. We're a little quieter. No, it was something where I go, this guy's tapping into God through his culture. But definitely it was in the Spirit. But then verse 27 of Romans chapter 8 says, and he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God's people in accordance with the will of God. And that is the Holy Spirit is guiding us, praying through us, and leading us into the will of God. And it's the classic thing with prayer.
Andrew McCourt [00:10:41]:
It's not about getting our will done in heaven, but it's about getting God's will done on earth. So when I go into prayer and I've got great plans for God, that's a problem. I need to go into prayer to receive the great plans from God. And that's where the Holy Spirit leads us and guides us. And it's not about a multiplicity of English words, but I think it's about a multiplicity of just surrender. Submission to God, and we may talk about it in America in a minute, is actually for those people with the gift of tongues, what does it actually mean also to pray in the spirit? Because it is one of the spiritual gifts that we believe in here at Bayside. And if you have that spiritual gift, Paul actually goes, you should be praying in that language.
Curt Harlow [00:11:26]:
Absolutely.
Andrew McCourt [00:11:27]:
There you go. I've gone from Ephesians 6 through to Romans 8 and alluded to First Corinthians 14.
Curt Harlow [00:11:33]:
Welcome to this episode. Thank you. So, no, that was a very good ender. Okay, let's go back to your very first point when. When we hear prayer and immediately shame comes on us. The old book, Spiritual Leadership by Oswald Sanders, he said, there's no area that a person is more convicted in than when asked, how much are you praying? Yeah, but, Dena, why. Why is that? So to your point, this is. Paul gets out of the metaphor, but he's not out of the war.
Curt Harlow [00:12:02]:
This is the sword of the spirit.
Andrew McCourt [00:12:04]:
Yep.
Curt Harlow [00:12:04]:
Is an offensive. Then he goes. And in summary, all of this. Here's the real way you do the battle and pray. I find myself doing everything to solve a problem, then praying last. Yeah. Like, we need a building up in Auburn now. And, you know, we would.
Curt Harlow [00:12:21]:
I take every call, I answer every. Josh and I, my executive pastor, we're texting constantly on this.
Dena Davidson [00:12:27]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:12:27]:
And I. You were saying that I'm like, oh, my goodness, I need to go into the prayer closet more and cry out to God and groans. Why didn't you give us that close down?
Andrew McCourt [00:12:40]:
Can I actually jump in on that?
Curt Harlow [00:12:41]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andrew McCourt [00:12:42]:
Because just with what you said made me think. I. I was up trying to cover for Curt, trying to step into his shoes a couple of weeks ago. Oh, what a job. Everybody in the shadow of Curt. But when I was preaching, I was talking about spiritual warfare, you know, and, you know, 10 to 13, that's what we're talking about. And I felt compelled in one of the services. I said, everybody, look at this.
Andrew McCourt [00:13:05]:
This is a disaster. It's the best disaster you could ever want. Auburn is bursting at the seams. I mean, it's bursting at the seams. So I asked Josh to come up in the middle of the sermon, the guy that, you know, your ex, Pat, and I got him up, and I just said, church, I want you to stand to your feet. We're gonna pray for this guy because he's done everything humanly possible. And God expects us to watch and pray, watch and pray, watch and pray. And he's been watching and he's been praying.
Andrew McCourt [00:13:33]:
But we as a congregation, we're gonna ask God for a spiritual breakthrough. And it was cheeky as well in my prayer, Curt, because I said this here. I said, God, we're asking you to do something. And, Lord, we as a congregation, when you do it, we're going to step up with all generosity, and we're going to do our bit, too.
Curt Harlow [00:13:53]:
This is the brilliance of this role you play.
Dena Davidson [00:13:57]:
He could say things that are harder for you.
Curt Harlow [00:13:59]:
I'm going to tell my people to be generous, too, but I'm not going to do it in that lovely Irish accent. Dena, why is it that we pray last sometimes?
Dena Davidson [00:14:10]:
I think it's. I think it's boring is one reason it feels really boring to pray. Like, we do a really great job of keeping ourselves constantly stimulated. Right. Like always. The next thing, and we're addicted to. We're addicted to entertainment and we're addicted to accomplishment. Like, those are the two vices, I would say, of the Western culture, entertainment and accomplishment.
Dena Davidson [00:14:34]:
And prayer kind of rejects both of those, right? Prayer. Prayer is not entertaining. It involves a crazy amount of silence, a crazy amount of listening. Even to be able to pray the right prayers. You have to. When you're praying, you get to this point where you're like, oh, pray, pray, pray, pray, pray. And then you're out. You have thought of all of the prayers, and then you have to be silent and wait for God to kind of breathe some new prayers into you, maybe even some better prayers.
Dena Davidson [00:15:01]:
So I think it involves silence. I think it also involves submission, which we hate. Literally just gets to the very core of the fact that we are not God and asks us to really practice that. So it's hard on all levels.
Curt Harlow [00:15:16]:
And I think it's never more aware that we are not in control than we were asking God to take control. Yeah, that's very good, Dena. I have always taught this. So, first of all, I think the life in the Spirit is a highly neglected Paulinian theme. So Gordon Fee, the great theologian, once I heard a sermon debate series he had with another theologian, and they said, what is the theme of Romans? And of course, this theologian, classic Reformed theologian, said, the theme of Romans is we're saved by grace through faith. And. And Gordon Feast is very important, very important. Paul repeats it in Ephesians twice and D.
Curt Harlow [00:15:56]:
But if you. If you measure the amount of words Paul leads on explaining that and the amount of exhortations and explanation of life in the Spirit, it's no contest. What he's concerned about with the Roman church is that they'll receive the grace of God and try to follow Jesus in their own strength. And so here Paul is back to this theme. And it's throughout. Like, the first half of Ephesians is grace, and the second half is exhortation. But throughout it, the Spirit is mentioned over and over and over and over again. I said this this weekend at church.
Curt Harlow [00:16:36]:
I said, we've all walked in the Spirit. If you're serious about Christ, you've had a moment where you've done it. But we just don't do it persistently and consistently. So you're having a conversation with someone hurting, and you're thinking, what can I do to help this person. This is a complex situation. They're very. They're very hurt. And all of a sudden something comes out of your mouth and you think innocently.
Curt Harlow [00:16:57]:
You think, that was really good.
Andrew McCourt [00:16:58]:
Yeah, yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:16:59]:
Because you have a sense that that wasn't you that said that thing. And they say back to you, this is exactly what I need in this moment. Andrew, you and I had a similar experience with our friend Matt when his daughter was going through cancer. I had a moment, I'm in the backyard and God just whispered. I got the impression, text Matt right now and ask him how you're doing. And I text him and he called me back in 30 seconds in tears. It was just that moment that he'd gotten one of the worst reports in that journey. He was like, how did you know this? I know he had the same experience with you.
Curt Harlow [00:17:34]:
Curt in Curt's power does not text Mac in the right moment. Curt's. And Curt's power does not find the wise and discerning, the word of wisdom, gift of the spirit. Curt in Curt's power doesn't have the gentleness and patience when he speaks. There are fruits of the life of the spirit. So the Curt who's operating here all of a sudden operates here. And I just think it's more like we have to be more conscious about the role of prayer and getting us tapped in. Here's another story for you, Andrew.
Curt Harlow [00:18:13]:
Andrew and I went. He took me to. To Ireland a few years back, and then he left me and went to Manchester. And then I. We ended up bopping around. We. I think we went from Ireland and we ended up in France. And in France, I was staying at a house, and I did not realize because they look similar.
Curt Harlow [00:18:32]:
There's like six different plugs in Europe. Six different ones. And there. There's three holes, and then there's two holes, and then there's two holes in a slot. It's the. It's night, I got jet lag. And I'm trying to find the right plug in my. All my 500 adapters.
Curt Harlow [00:18:51]:
And I almost. I literally called us, caused a spark. I thought I'd ruined the whole house because in the dark I put. We're so often plugged into the wrong power source. I think Paul's just saying here, get in the right power source. And then when you do that, your mind will become alert. You'll pray for the people. You should pray.
Curt Harlow [00:19:18]:
And then we get to verse 19, which to me is the fascinating part. He says, pray also for me. Paul not only taught living the life in the spirit he desperately needed. He wanted the prayer support to get into that place in the spirit.
Andrew McCourt [00:19:35]:
So good.
Dena Davidson [00:19:37]:
Oh, go ahead. No, no, I was gonna say we skipped right over the on all occasions part. And I think that that is so powerful. I think many Christians do this weird thing where they end up giving, like praying and giving thanks, like for the wrong types of things. Like my children and I, right now it's Thanksgiving season and so we're making a Thanksgiving chain and I'm having them memorize the Bible verse, give thanks in all circumstances. And so. And one of the things I have them chant, cause I've seen this confusion over and over again is I say, do we give thanks for all circumstances? And they go, no. I say, that's right.
Dena Davidson [00:20:15]:
We give thanks in all circumstances. So Riley was sick this week, my 7 year old. I say, riley, repeat the Bible verse. So she says, give thanks in all circumstances, for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. A major parenting win. I say, riley, are you giving thanks for being sick? She goes, no. She's like, no, I don't want to be sick.
Andrew McCourt [00:20:38]:
I don't.
Dena Davidson [00:20:38]:
That's terrible. Say, that's right. What does it mean that you're giving thanks in your sickness? She's like, I guess I'm glad that I get to watch more episodes today. I'm like, yes. And I think this is like, this is the power. Don't make that mistake. Like, Paul is not saying, it's great that I'm in prison, right? It's great that you're facing all these spiritual battles. It's great that these principalities and demons are coming against you.
Dena Davidson [00:21:05]:
That's not what is being said. We are to pray in the Spirit on all occasions, meaning that in every circumstances. You're not to make the mistake of believing that God is excited that you're in that circumstance. But you must know that God is with you in that circumstance. And I think it's just an important little distinction we have to make.
Curt Harlow [00:21:26]:
Yes, that's really good.
Andrew McCourt [00:21:28]:
One person said this I think was really wise. You know, we've always said prayer changes things, but equally praise changes things. And I have no doubt that praising in the Spirit again, Paul talks about it in 1 Corinthians, chapter 14. And there is something that it is not natural because we look at our problems, we can be inundated. It can cause depression. But I think through the Spirit we can get a full focus. Actually, I have much to praise about. And it's the classic example of Acts, chapter 16 Paul, Silas, and Philippi in the worst circumstances possible.
Andrew McCourt [00:22:03]:
But I've no doubt, through the power of the Holy Spirit and the presence of the Spirit in that moment, they started to praise on all occasions. And I think that's just. It's just an amazing thing. But then Paul goes obviously on here, and he said, and also praying for all. All the Lord's people. And I think that's a. That's what you said earlier on. You just.
Andrew McCourt [00:22:24]:
Oh, my goodness. I should. I. I want. He wasn't on my prayer list, but I just felt I should do it recently. There's a guy, Nate, and he lives. I mean, he lives in the other side of America, but it was like God dropped it. You know, the language we use dropped him in my spirit.
Andrew McCourt [00:22:40]:
Put him on my mind or whatever, put them in my heart. We use all of these languages, but it was like the Holy Spirit said, you should text him and you should pray for him. So I said, hey, Nate, just let you know I'm thinking of you and I'm praying for you. Boom. And he came straight back to me. He said, that's amazing. I'm trying to pass kidney stones. Did he get immediate healing? No, he still had to go through the very uncomfortable process.
Andrew McCourt [00:23:04]:
But he had a sense. God is still with me. God is still with me. And I just, you know, you know yourself. I have children and they've left me, which is wonderful in one sense. But because of the iPhone, they can still ping me. And sometimes when I don't answer their calls, they'll ping me. They'll send a ping because they have that ability.
Andrew McCourt [00:23:25]:
But that's the Holy Spirit. I think that's what the Holy Spirit does. Not just when I'm in that I'm going to have a prayer time. I think when I'm driving, when I'm just living the Christian life and where we're walking and living in the Spirit, the Holy Spirit will king. And we'll end up praying for the Lord's people. And that's global. That's an amazing thing. It's not just, oh, you know, us four, no more in our family.
Andrew McCourt [00:23:48]:
It's at that moment in time, across time zones, sure, that I can begin to pray for God's people, led by the Spirit. And I think it makes prayer at that moment in time so much more exciting. And open up in our calendar, but open up also our world maps and just going, God, who do you want me to pray for at this moment through the power of the Spirit?
Curt Harlow [00:24:11]:
So keep on praying for The Lord's people. Why are churches so competitive with each other? Like even this passage. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions. There are churches that teach this is not tongues. It's for sure not tongues. And if you teach it's tongues, you're deluded. And. And there's churches that teach if you are not speaking in tongues.
Curt Harlow [00:24:29]:
Right on verse 18. And then the. The funny thing about that debate is the second half of the sentence says, with all kinds of prayers. Yeah. So we're trying to say this one kind is what it is, and it's not that. And it is this. And then he says all kinds of prayers. And.
Curt Harlow [00:24:45]:
And here's what I. My. My theory on this is we don't pray for each other enough. It is very hard to stop loving people that you're crying out for God to help them. You know, like, I used to say this to students when I was on campus. I'm like, I am praying, praying that our group is the smallest group of Christians on this campus and that there's 2,000 of us.
Andrew McCourt [00:25:06]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:25:07]:
Can we pray that together? Or. Bob Goff says this. You know, would you. He's. What would happen in America if at the end of your church service, you ran and everyone drove as fast as they could a mile down the street to the next church and you did that thing that softball teams do at the end of the game where they make that huge human tunnel of encouragement and the players run through it and while the other church gets out. If we prayed for each other, I think we would see a massive witness of unity. We'd see the power of unity. That's the shield of the Spirit, by the way, is the.
Curt Harlow [00:25:42]:
Is unity. Because the shields come together to protect. And I just. The amount of strife and division and pettiness and immaturity is directly related to the lack of prayer. Or another way. I would say this is. What if we all walked around and we had like, a meter on our forehead, and the meter showed us where we at. From red to green on time spent being seen by God in our closet.
Curt Harlow [00:26:13]:
We would walk around and we'd see this. The vast majority of us are in the red zone. And it would go, oh, this makes sense. Why we're grumpy with each other. We don't have the fruit of the Spirit. While we get offended by small offenses, why we're impatient with our children and our spouse, why we are jealous of our coworker. It's all of this. This right here.
Curt Harlow [00:26:37]:
And if you saw Jesus with that same measuring Stick Jesus, the one we're following. The whole thing's named after him. Yeah, it would. It would. It would have been all the way to Green. Because early in the morning, early in the morning he went to. And I love the way Mark says this. He went to a lonely place.
Curt Harlow [00:26:59]:
To your point about prayer is sometimes lonely. And when the disciples come to get him, he echoes what you've said, Andrew. They said, gosh darn, Capernaum loves us. The miracle crusade last night. Jesus wild success. And they've made brunch. They've made brunch and it's everything. It's just the hummus is fresh.
Curt Harlow [00:27:21]:
It's incredible. They love you. In fact, we should just stay here in Capernaum, make it our headquarters and everyone can come to us. And Jesus says, no, we are going to go town to town preaching this gospel. Because that is why I have become so. Jesus comes out of his lonely time of prayer with the plan. We're going town to town. Today's the day.
Curt Harlow [00:27:46]:
We leave today. And he comes out with his purpose renewed. I have been reminded by the Father, I'm not here to collect the praises at Capernaum. I am here to make it to every single village in Galilee. We, on the other hand, go. I'm not sure what the plan is. I've kind of lost track of the plan. I'm not even sure what the purpose is.
Curt Harlow [00:28:10]:
What's my why directly related to. Is the lonely place filling that meter up in your life.
Andrew McCourt [00:28:20]:
That's good. I'm praying for, you know, the Lord's people as well. I think this is the place where when we genuinely go, we're being led by the Spirit. The Spirit leads us to the church. The global. Not some fuzzy ecumenical thing here, but he leads us to the wider church. And it's the work of the Spirit. That's the point where we lay down egos and logos.
Andrew McCourt [00:28:40]:
It's like when we suddenly come in there and we're going, oh, my goodness, this is way bigger than me. Oh, God, would you grow my church, Lord? Would you bless my connect. I mean, and that's really cool, but sometimes it could be selfish. Lord, please show me. Please show the world I'm successful. Or sometimes, Lord, would you be glorified in a part of the world that I'll never visit? They won't even know that I'm praying for them. But God, I am for the global church, for them all to win. And it's such a humbling experience when the prayer, when the Spirit does.
Andrew McCourt [00:29:13]:
But such A thing of alignment when you said that's what Jesus was doing. And it made me think as well, Curt, when you said it. And also Jesus after one of those occasions came out and said, Right, you12, I'm narrowing this down. God put you. No one else chose you, but the spirit chose you. And I'm, and I'm choosing you right now. I've been really praying about this. And he had a, he, he got a world changing team.
Andrew McCourt [00:29:34]:
11 out of 12 is not bad.
Curt Harlow [00:29:36]:
No. And he spent a night, a night in prayer.
Andrew McCourt [00:29:39]:
Yes.
Curt Harlow [00:29:40]:
Before he chose.
Andrew McCourt [00:29:41]:
Yeah, yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:29:41]:
A night. Jesus, the Messiah.
Andrew McCourt [00:29:44]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:29:45]:
God on earth.
Dena Davidson [00:29:46]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:29:47]:
He said this is a big one. I'm going to pray all through the night. And you know, we're, we're, are we good for, for 10 minutes on this?
Andrew McCourt [00:29:54]:
Oh my goodness.
Dena Davidson [00:29:55]:
We've teased it a couple of times. I've have my two favorite. Well also my sister, two of my three favorite AG pastors here. So talk about tongues. And I will be the first to lead in this conversation and say I believe that speaking in tongues is one of the gifts that the church that God currently bestows on the church. I personally have never spoken in tongues, so hopefully that crosses the bridge and.
Curt Harlow [00:30:20]:
Lay hands on her.
Dena Davidson [00:30:21]:
People would be nervous to enter into this conversation. First question, why are tongues such a divisive issue? And can you help us understand a good way to approach this topic biblically?
Curt Harlow [00:30:33]:
Okay, first a little background and then maybe Andrew, you take a shot at some background answers. 27 years I was in the Assemblies of God, which is if you don't know a Pentecostal denomination. The Assemblies of God doctrine is that all of the supernatural gifts are available to every believer today. So they are not cessationists. My good brothers and sisters. That would teach the power of those supernatural gifts was meant to launch the church. But is the reason we don't see them a lot today, they would say is because we are out of that period of church, out of that dispensation. Substance of God believes differently.
Curt Harlow [00:31:12]:
I am not a cessationist. I believe that they're all available to us. I would also add the caveat though. You often will see the gifts of the Spirit, including tongues, in missional settings more than non missional settings. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are meant to edify us. But look at what Paul's asking for prayer here. He says I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the Gospel. So the two things that should overshadow every supernatural gift and we'll get in ton specifically Is they should edify the church.
Curt Harlow [00:31:47]:
After I'm done practicing that supernatural spiritual gift, is the church stronger? And secondly, they should advance the gospel. Has what I done been a witness that advanced the gospel? Now, in tongues specifically, there is a way to practice tongues, and this is why I think it's controversial that advances the gospel dramatically. I know of people that have heard tongues in their native language that the person speaking in tongues did not know that language. I have one particular experience in Arizona that still blows my mind to this day. I also have experienced this myself where people were practicing the gift of tongues, or what seemed to be the gift of tongues in a way that did was not a good witness that turned people off. That was literally the manifestation of Paul's exhortation in First Corinthians, which is, and if someone comes into the church and they hear you doing this, won't they be confused? I have seen that, yes. So this is why every gift could be this way, not just tongues. Tongues tends to be such an outward gift.
Curt Harlow [00:32:55]:
You see it. But you could do this with a word of knowledge and a word of wisdom. You could do this with prophecy in a way that is the prophet is subject to the prophet. So you can practice the gift the Holy Spirit gave you in a way that's divisive, dramatic, self centered. And that's why Paul also says when the specifically the gift of prophecies practice, it's on the hearer to discern is this person spiritually in a mature way, edifying the church and advancing the gospel. So just that's the assembly of God's theology. Now I am not, I love the assemblies of God, had a great experience. I am not completely in agreement with everything in this, some of this God's statement of faith.
Curt Harlow [00:33:37]:
It's not a wide departure for me. But, but, but especially on this issue of tongues, we would have some. A few little things different.
Andrew McCourt [00:33:46]:
Yeah, I think there was two problems. Two, there was a lot of problems in the church of Corinth. And Paul actually said, your meetings do more harm than good. I mean, what a critique.
Dena Davidson [00:33:56]:
This is chapter 14.
Andrew McCourt [00:33:57]:
You'd be better to stay at home. You better just did. But they had two major issues in the church, and that was the misuse of sex and the misuse of spiritual gifts. I know he spends considerable time on this, but his answer is the same to both problems. The easiest thing is with sex is to go, you know what, there's misuse. So I advocate disuse. Stop. Just stop having sex.
Andrew McCourt [00:34:19]:
You're doing my head In. And this is just crazy, but he doesn't. He advocates proper use, radical teaching. Okay, the wife's husband. Sorry, the man's husband is nice subject. And submitted to the wife and vice versa. I mean, women would be going, this is incredible. Paul's just elevated us.
Andrew McCourt [00:34:36]:
So there was misuse. He didn't advocate disuse. He advocates proper use. And he does exactly the same with spiritual gifts. Easiest thing to go, just stop doing it. We're just gonna scrap spiritual gifts. But he goes, not disuse, but proper use. And that's what he talks about and really breaks it down, you know, to go, okay, keep speaking in tongues.
Andrew McCourt [00:34:55]:
But here's the parameters for doing it. So I'll read here. And I know we're almost out of time, but he says, for if I pray in a tongue. Very interesting. My spirit, small S, prays. So I'm actually praying from somewhere very deep inside of me. My spirit prays at that moment in tongue. And I actually think there's an overlap here in the way I'd interpret is there's something to do with Romans 8.
Andrew McCourt [00:35:16]:
I don't know how to pray. I don't know how to pray, but the spirit intercedes me. That's one way it can be read. I'm not saying it's the only way it can be read, but it's the way I see it sometimes. But my mind is unfruitful, so I'm praying in tongues. But, you know, my mind's not being built up, but my spirit is. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding. So Paul's saying.
Andrew McCourt [00:35:38]:
And I'm seeing this as the Christian at home, but he's also saying, in the church, be wise with this in the church. If you're just, like, tripping out on tongues, no one else is being edified. You're being encouraged. You're being built up, but it's unfruitful for everybody else. Stop it in the public context. And if there's gonna be a message in tongues, make sure there's someone there to interpret. At Bayside, our services, thank God, are so big because thousands are going to church. This doesn't work for us.
Andrew McCourt [00:36:04]:
Big message in tongues, someone speaking in tongues. It just becomes really difficult. But for the private Christian, I think, at this moment in time to pray in that spiritual language. If people have that spiritual language, use it. And there's one interesting thing that Paul turns around and he goes, otherwise, when you are praising God in the Spirit, Capital S here. So he seems to be equating this with speaking in tongues at this moment in time. He said, how can someone else who is not. Sorry, let me read it.
Andrew McCourt [00:36:36]:
How can someone else who is now put in the position of inquirer say amen to your Thanksgiving, So they do not know what you are saying. So that you know Paul's saying here, just use it wisely. Use it privately in prayer. But if you have that gift, use it and pray with it. And I always say the gift of tongues is not the primary factor in being used of the Spirit, certainly in the world of Pentecost, far from it. Actually, Pentecost is there for evangelism. That's what it's for, and that's what we should be going after.
Curt Harlow [00:37:11]:
So I add one thing to that, Andrew, where I, where, where this, where tongues gets controversial is when Paul later on says, do not forbid the speaking of tongues. And he also says, not all speak in tongues. Now, those two comments are interpreted wildly different. So not all speak in tongues is seen by a whole camp of theologians. As you know, this, this idea that you can, that you're going to be filled with the Spirit and you're going to speak in tongues is a wrong idea. It says right here. And then, of course, the other camp says, do not forbid. You're that same.
Curt Harlow [00:37:51]:
That teaching is forbidding the speaking of tongues. So I am in the camp that says tongues is available, but I do not believe every single individual would receive that gift or that you are less than spirit filled if you have not received that gift gift. And here's the reason why. I think all of the instruction Andrew just gave us starts in 1 Corinthians 11:17, where Paul switches to talking about the abuse of the Lord's Supper. So when he switches to saying in this area in the following directives, I have no praise for you. Here's how you're practicing the Lord's Supper. Some of you are rich and getting drunk. Some of you are coming, you have nothing and no one's sharing with you.
Curt Harlow [00:38:31]:
So he's saying in your gathering, I see some problems. The Lord's Supper is one. The spiritual gifts, like Andrew said, is another. So I would, in the context, not everyone in church will speak in tongues and do not forbid the speaking of tongues in church. So in church makes a big difference. Now I will tell you, people I highly respect and highly love will say, I've got that wrong. He leaves that context and he's talking about the universal church, or he's talking about the apostolic age. I'm fine with that.
Curt Harlow [00:39:08]:
I'm fine to disagree with him. Because here's the really important point. Paul makes this point in both verse and Second Corinthians. If you want to argue about secondary things and be petty about it and say those guys are screwed messing everything up in the church because they believe in that they're in that camp, you are for sure immature. So if I don't go. Seems obvious to me. The context here is a church service. And so he's not talking about the private spiritual language.
Curt Harlow [00:39:40]:
He's not talking about a universal forbidding. It's in the church service. It makes a lot of sense. I could be wrong, though.
Dena Davidson [00:39:49]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:39:50]:
And I want to be in loving relationship with my other brothers and sisters. And even people that are like, there is no spiritual gifts at all nowadays. That's cessationism. I do. My main concern is not am I right or wrong about this secondary issue. My main concern is am I acting in maturity? Am I demonstrating the bigger principle in First Corinthians by fighting about this that I am, I've shown that I'm immature. And what's so sad to me is that a book that was written to immature people meant to identify how they were handling these situations with immaturity is used. I mean, this, this, this passages that Andrew and I have read from 11 through 14 have split churches and split denominations and split families.
Curt Harlow [00:40:40]:
And it's just sad that the. The intent of the Holy Spirit.
Dena Davidson [00:40:45]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:40:45]:
Talking about the Bible study is to identify that immaturity and be convicted by that. And yet what happens is we use it as fodder and ammunition.
Dena Davidson [00:40:54]:
You know what's crazy is that on the night that Jesus went to the cross, he had a chance to pray for us. And he did not pray for us to speak in tongues, nor did he pray for us to perfectly understand what he taught. He prayed that we would be one. And so we can get this a little wrong if we are staying with one. Like if we are doing everything we can to cling to Christ and cling to the revealed truth of his word while loving each other, we have a little bit of ability to differ and to have opposite interpretations. I would say there's probably someone listening that the enemy has been speaking the lie for a long time that you are an inferior Christian, perhaps not even saved, because you don't speak in tongues. And to that person, I just want to say, don't let Satan put you in that control relationship with God where you are dictating to God the terms of your salvation. If that's something someone said to you, Satan is saying to you, you're saying to yourself, reject that lie.
Dena Davidson [00:41:59]:
God is the only one who can set the terms of your salvation. And all we have to do, all we can do is look to him to save us. So if you have the enemy or anyone else whispering, you are not saved because of this, you say to God, God save me. That's the only answer.
Curt Harlow [00:42:16]:
Absolutely, yeah. Absolutely, yeah.
Andrew McCourt [00:42:18]:
And I would encourage people with that. That's a great point. From the place of grace, from the place of salvation, the finished work of Christ, focus on 1 Corinthians 12:31. Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. You're saved, you're born again, you're heaven bound. You are blood bought. You are a Christian. But.
Andrew McCourt [00:42:39]:
But you know what? There's a whole world has opened to me, and I'm going to eagerly desire. And I think it's a great challenge from Paul. Can I get after it now and do it in the right way?
Dena Davidson [00:42:48]:
Amen.
Curt Harlow [00:42:49]:
Absolutely. Okay. I said to myself at the beginning of this podcast, we're just going to go 30 minutes.
Andrew McCourt [00:42:55]:
Look at you.
Curt Harlow [00:42:56]:
Andrew's got to go pick up his grandchild, who was one of the most beautiful babies. And, and. But then Dena decided to.
Dena Davidson [00:43:02]:
I'm sorry you guys kept hinting at it.
Curt Harlow [00:43:05]:
And so here we are. We've gone back, but still, let us do the most important part of Bible study. After you've done the hermeneutics and exegesis, let's apply it. I always say there's three highs you have to have in Bible study. A high view of the inspiration of scripture, a high intelligence, as you rightly divide it, and a high application of those first two highs don't matter at all. Dena, coming back to Ephesians, how then should we pray? Give us some practical insight on how.
Dena Davidson [00:43:36]:
We apply this so that on all occasions, that means when you wake up, when you are making yourself a cup of coffee, when you are driving, when you are sitting in a boring meeting, when you are wanting to be scrolling TikTok on all occasions, it's not just. We talked a lot about the prayer closet. That's an important part of a Christian's prayer life. But also every other moment is an opportunity to be talking to God, having that private conversation. I was in a very boring meeting today, and I was having.
Curt Harlow [00:44:09]:
Was I leading that meeting?
Dena Davidson [00:44:10]:
I will not confirm or deny I.
Curt Harlow [00:44:13]:
Was leading that meeting. Curt.
Dena Davidson [00:44:15]:
No, that is not the one. You are not leading that meeting. It was a Different meeting.
Curt Harlow [00:44:18]:
Okay.
Dena Davidson [00:44:19]:
And you feel better now as far as you know? You were not leading that meeting. No, you weren't leading it. But I was praying because I was like, I'm not gonna be bored in this meeting. Boredom's healthy. But I'd rather be praying. So I was praying for. I was looking around and seeing all of these people to pray for. Pray on all occasions.
Andrew McCourt [00:44:35]:
Yeah, that's good.
Curt Harlow [00:44:36]:
Very good. Andrew, how would you apply this?
Andrew McCourt [00:44:39]:
Yeah, that's what I'm doing. Even when you're going to get your grandson your drive? No, it's in every moment of life. The great Smith Wigglesworth, he said this. He shocked the crowd. He said, I never pray more than 30 minutes. Like, oh, you're so incredible. You should pray more than that. He went, no, but I never go more than 30 minutes without praying.
Curt Harlow [00:44:57]:
That's very good.
Andrew McCourt [00:44:58]:
And it's just. It's just that we're walking in the spirit, living with the Lord, enjoying his presence, and stop having, like, morning devotions and saying, oh, I spoke to God for five minutes. I'll see you in 24 hours. No, that's not a marriage. That's not a relationship. It's like, I'm gonna specifically talk to you now, but I'm gonna talk to you all day.
Curt Harlow [00:45:16]:
I've often said every prayer ends with a comma, not a period.
Andrew McCourt [00:45:19]:
Yeah, that's good.
Curt Harlow [00:45:21]:
Here's my really practical application of this, and that is pray in bed. So oftentimes, I will lay in bread and I'll think, I've got all this to do today, and all of it needs prayer. And I'm concerned about this, and I'm concerned about that, but let me go make the coffee first, and let me do this and let me do that, and the next thing I know, I'm answering emails and I haven't prayed. So I've made it this discipline of going, I am going to use the Lord's Prayer as an outline. And before I get out of this bed. And there was something weird in me that goes, no, you got to get out of the bed and you got to get on your knees, you got to get dressed, or you got to go to that. And I still read my Bible every day in that place, and I'll pray some there. But before I leave that bed, I've said, God, you're my father.
Curt Harlow [00:46:04]:
You have more authority than I could ever want. I have all the authority. I have a job. I'm advancing your kingdom. That's my job. Today I need you to provide for me. I need some bread today. I need you to make my relationships all forgiven and whole on both sides of it.
Curt Harlow [00:46:20]:
Me and them. And then, Jesus, please don't lead me. Don't let me be tempted and keep me from the evil one. And. And of course, on each and every one of those, I'll. I'll go add off on a spiritual tangent, but when I leave the bed in the morning, I've prayed.
Andrew McCourt [00:46:39]:
Good job.
Curt Harlow [00:46:40]:
And it's so practical, and especially for those of us that are easily distracted, I just think it's. It's been a game changer for me to go, yeah, God will listen to me while I'm still lying down and have sand in my eye corners. All right, Dena, Bri. I mean, who we got next week?
Andrew McCourt [00:47:00]:
Thanksgiving.
Dena Davidson [00:47:01]:
Oh, Thanksgiving episode.
Curt Harlow [00:47:03]:
Tell us about the bonus. It's gonna be a crossover, right?
Dena Davidson [00:47:05]:
So exciting. So we're part of the Thrive Party podcast network, and we have a crossover episode between the Bible study and am I doing this right? So some incredible conversations. Everything from the Bachelor to the topic of hell and how can we reconcile God's goodness and justice. A little bit of everything.
Andrew McCourt [00:47:25]:
Am I doing hell, right?
Dena Davidson [00:47:26]:
Probably not, if you're in hell. So, anyways, I encourage you to share that episode, maybe listen in with family as you're doing all your Thanksgiving prep.
Curt Harlow [00:47:34]:
Cool. This is. This our first ever crossover.
Dena Davidson [00:47:36]:
It is. First network crossover.
Curt Harlow [00:47:38]:
Okay. All right. We get to. We get to get all that world of am I doing this right? And Dena Davidson, so don't miss it. As always, I just want to tell you thank you so much for taking time. This is a big deal to us. Yeah. Like, if we get this right, we get everything right.
Curt Harlow [00:47:52]:
So those of you that watch week in and week out, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And please keep doing what I know you're doing. Keep spreading the word. Put the comments there in the YouTube and we'll. We'll answer and. And even bring some of those comments and questions into the podcast itself.
Curt Harlow [00:48:07]:
We'll see you next week on the Bible study podcast.