Dena Davidson [00:00:00]:
Welcome to the Bible Study podcast. I'm so excited because it's the first time that we are joined by Pastor Greg from Adventure out in Yuba. Tell us a little bit about your church.
Greg Mansur [00:00:10]:
Yeah, Adventure in Yuba city we planted 15 years ago.
Dena Davidson [00:00:13]:
I love it.
Greg Mansur [00:00:13]:
I can't hardly even believe that. So it's like 2000, my wife and I. Yeah, 2011. Yeah, 2011.
Dena Davidson [00:00:19]:
I'm very bad at math as you just witnessed right there. I was like 21, 26 years ago.
Greg Mansur [00:00:23]:
Hilarious. So yeah, my wife and I and just a handful of people, you know, so literally did the. Just gathered on Wednesday nights for Bible study and prayer and moved into a school and then moved into a warehouse and then moved into our permanent location where we're at now. Did the bi vocational thing. So I worked at Walmart overnight and so did the overnight shift at Walmart because the church was so small obviously, you know, so it's just been a great, like Adventure's the name.
Dena Davidson [00:00:49]:
Like it's been a great adventure.
Greg Mansur [00:00:51]:
Pick the right name because I had no idea when we started what it would look like. But no, God's blessed us. We've got a great team, several pastors, staff members, couple of services on Sunday morning. And it's just been a great, it's been a great experience. We're so just humbled and blessed really in every way. Yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:01:08]:
Well, in Thrive College we've had a few students who have come from your church and they're just, they're incredible. They, they love Jesus. They're just down to learn, down to serve. So great fruit coming from your church and excited that you're here with us today.
Greg Mansur [00:01:22]:
Thank you. I'm so honored to be here.
Dena Davidson [00:01:23]:
And we're talking about an amazing passage. We are talking about Jesus's very first miracle. Right. So we're in the Gospel of John. They said's going to be in John for, I don't know, forever.
Greg Mansur [00:01:33]:
Yeah. So excited about that. Really are.
Dena Davidson [00:01:36]:
We're in chapter two. So to catch you up, if you haven't listened to the passages or the podcasts prior. So we started with this great theological revelation that set up the theme of the book of John, which is who is Jesus? And from the get go we find out he was with God and he was, was God. He's the Logos. He's the animating, creative ordering force, communicative power of God come to us. And then we skip straight into the story of the calling of the first disciples. We hear about John the Baptist and at this point Jesus has Called different disciples. And these disciples, they're just coming and seeing, coming and seeing.
Dena Davidson [00:02:17]:
What is it? What are we part of? They're pretty decided that they found the Messiah, but they're still learning right along with us as we read who Jesus is. And so we're going to pick up in chapter two, verses one. On the third day, there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. Jesus also was invited to the wedding with his disciples. When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, they have no wine. And Jesus said to her, woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come. His mother said to the servants, do whatever he tells you. Now, there were six stone water jars there for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding 20 or 30 gallons.
Dena Davidson [00:03:03]:
Jesus said to the servants, fill the jars with water. And they filled them up to the brim. And he said to them, now draw some out and take it to the master of the feast. So they took it. When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine and did not know where it came from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. The master of the feast called the bridegroom and said to him, everyone serves the good wine first. And when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.
Dena Davidson [00:03:32]:
This the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee and manifested his glory, and his disciples believed in him. After this, he went down to Capernaum with his mother and his brothers and his disciples, and they stayed there for a few days. All right, Pastor Greg, such a great scripture, and one of the most fun, right? Because it's been used to so many purposes. Right. Like Jesus is pro wine. Like Jesus is pro. It's just like. Right, we'll get into that.
Dena Davidson [00:04:03]:
But it's like. Is that the point? Not so much. Again, the book of John is about Jesus's identity. And so this miracle that he performs is gonna say something about his identity. So you're coming at this. You're reading this passage. Tell us some things that we should pick up from.
Greg Mansur [00:04:20]:
Sure. Well, the first thing that jumps out at me when I read this in this season of my life is the fact that my youngest daughter is getting ready to get married. So I'm thinking a lot about weddings, and there's something very exciting about weddings, and I love the very celebratory nature of where we find Jesus in this moment, because a Jewish wedding is a little bit different than how we do our weddings. Today they would be multi day festival galas. Right. So all kinds of enthusiasm, all kinds of excitement, dancing and eating and celebrating and just all. All the things, Right?
Dena Davidson [00:04:54]:
Yes. So they're not like our American weddings where it's this. And this is one of my pet peeves where literally people are cleaning up the wedding, they're starting to take down the decor before the bride and groom have left. Right. That's one of my greatest pet peeves. I'm like, maybe we could have waited like 20 minutes before we start dissembling the thing that they planned for their, their entire lifetime through the bread.
Greg Mansur [00:05:15]:
So anyways, can we take a breath? Yes, yes. But yeah, like you say, you know, it's all about Jesus's identity. Right. And so the fact that we have here, you know, in the text, this is the first sign. And so that's really a critical piece of understanding this story because there's a difference between a sign and just a miracle. Now it's a miracle. Yes. But it's also one of seven signs that we see in the book of John.
Greg Mansur [00:05:42]:
And signs point to something beyond just the awesome feat that was just done. It's about, this is who Jesus is.
Dena Davidson [00:05:52]:
Ooh, that's a great distinction.
Greg Mansur [00:05:53]:
It's very, very good. Yeah. And they actually, you know, in the Greek there are different words, you know, for sign and for miracle and the miracles, there's about 35 miracles that we see, you know, in the Gospel accounts. And there is a certain Greek word used for those. There are seven signs. So there is a distinction. So I think it's important as we think about this text and other texts, again, not just being. We'll talk about this more at the end, not just to be amazed by it.
Greg Mansur [00:06:21]:
And like, wow, wasn't this like this cool thing that happened? There's a purpose behind it and that's for people to see Jesus for who he revealed himself to be the son of God.
Dena Davidson [00:06:30]:
Okay, I've never heard this distinction, so don't doubt me as a Bible scholar, but can you rattle off just some of the other off the top of your head if you know any of the other seven?
Greg Mansur [00:06:40]:
Yeah. There's the feeding of the 5,000. That's one. The last one is Lazarus. So that's one that always remember. So the first one is the wedding. The last one is the death and resurrection of Lazarus. And there are several others too.
Dena Davidson [00:06:55]:
Okay, I'm so going. All right, this one, it's really good
Greg Mansur [00:06:58]:
because you can also see there's some progression. Like there seems to be A little bit of order in, they get more intense. And obviously raising someone from the dead, that's like the ultimate. And then that leads right into his, you know, his passion week and all the rest that's going on with him.
Dena Davidson [00:07:15]:
Well, definitely, I'm gonna return to that theme and study that a little bit. I love that. That's the beauty of the Bible study podcast. You can read a book all your life and then you still. There's just so much to plumb and learn and understand.
Greg Mansur [00:07:29]:
So.
Dena Davidson [00:07:29]:
Yeah, thank you.
Greg Mansur [00:07:30]:
Well, just about the Bible in general, I love just being passionate about this book. I love that about Bayside. I love that at our church, what we do since the very beginning. So like I said 15 years, we actually hand out copies of the Bible in every one of our services. You know, so I'll get up. Hey, we're in John chapter two. Our ushers are coming down the aisle. If you don't have a Bible, you know, raise your hand.
Greg Mansur [00:07:54]:
Because we're just passionate about making sure that people have a copy of the Scriptures. And there's digital and there's, there's lots of great resources, but I think there's something just really powerful about people having a Bible. So I love just that Bible believing, Bible teaching emphasis, you know, that we need to have. So, yeah, keep digging in because, yeah, it's living powerful, sharper than any two edged sword. Every time we go to it, we learn, we just. We learn, we learn, we grow. So it's beautiful.
Dena Davidson [00:08:18]:
Learn, we learn, we grow. Okay, so I love that you picked up on the cultural context. So when we're thinking about weddings already, there's a distinction between how they would have understood weddings. And so, you know, if you're on the first day of the wedding, basically the job was to keep the wedding guests feasting and always in a mode of celebration.
Greg Mansur [00:08:39]:
Right.
Dena Davidson [00:08:40]:
What culturally would have been the case if they had run out of wine? Like what, what are the stakes of this miracle? Culturally?
Greg Mansur [00:08:47]:
Yeah, it's such a huge point because it's not just, you know, we think about this great thing that Jesus is going to do. And it's certainly an act of kindness and love and all the rest, but it's also, it's a family honor thing, you know, like it. Absolutely. If the wine runs out or the refreshments run out or something, as you say, keeps the party from progressing forward. It looks really bad. Like it really has this cultural. We're embarrassed. We have to hang our heads in shame.
Greg Mansur [00:09:17]:
It's just, it's not a Good look at all. So Jesus really does provide. Not just. It's not just more wine at the feast, it's all encompassing, everything related to the family and what they were, the obligation and the expectation of the crowd. It would have just gone really, really bad.
Dena Davidson [00:09:33]:
Yes. I think that's helpful to know because if you don't have that cultural context, you might be thinking, no big deal, they still have the cake to bring out a little bit later. Right. Like, what is the big deal? I guess Mary, the mother of Jesus, really cares about wine. Right. And it's. You're just missing out on some of the layers of the story if you don't know that for sure. So I think that's so helpful.
Dena Davidson [00:09:56]:
I also think another cultural point, if my husband came up to me and said, woman.
Greg Mansur [00:10:03]:
Yeah, yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:10:04]:
There's a little cultural distinction in how we hear that. So.
Greg Mansur [00:10:07]:
Right.
Dena Davidson [00:10:08]:
If Judah, if my 4 year old, he grows up, he's in his 30s, as Jesus would be in this passage, and he calls me woman.
Greg Mansur [00:10:16]:
Yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:10:16]:
I'm be like, excuse me, sir. Right. Like I am the mother that brought you in this role. I'll take you out of this world. Getting fiery thinking about it.
Greg Mansur [00:10:24]:
Exactly.
Dena Davidson [00:10:25]:
That's not, that's not how Mary would have heard it.
Greg Mansur [00:10:28]:
Correct, Correct.
Dena Davidson [00:10:29]:
It is a term of respect. It is in term of endearment. I think it also maybe says a little bit about. There's no. The cultural baggage that we often bring when we read the Bible. It's important to scrub that and say, okay, like knowing how Jesus relates to his mother in all of the stories, in the rest of the stories, how do I best understand that?
Greg Mansur [00:10:53]:
Yeah, well. Yeah, well, understanding the Greek word, I mean, so looking at the actual word and what I was able to. In my study, you know, probably the closest modern way of saying would be ma'. Am. You know, so like, yes, ma', am, no, ma'. Am. We don't really do that in our culture today. But it was a term of politeness.
Greg Mansur [00:11:12]:
The other thing that I thought was interesting is it's the same word that Jesus uses when he's on the cross. Woman. Behold thy son. You know, behold another pointing at John.
Dena Davidson [00:11:22]:
To John, author of this gospel.
Greg Mansur [00:11:23]:
Correct, Correct. So certainly in that context, we're not looking at it kind of in the same lens. And so if we, if we don't, if we don't understand how the word is used, not just the grammar, but also how it's used in other places, it can give us a very skewed modern day. I'm not talking to my mom this way. I'm not talking to my wife this way. It's not disrespectful at all. It's actually in the context, a very respectful way of understanding his relationship with her.
Dena Davidson [00:11:51]:
Yes. And I mean, sometimes there's communication in what is said. And this is actually, I think, such a powerful example of there's lots of communication about Jesus and Mary's relationship and what is not said. Right. So I'm reading this and I'm thinking Mary says to Jesus, they have no wine. And Jesus said to her, woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come. And then his mother said to his servants, do whatever he tells you. Right? So I'm thinking Jesus just said no to his mom.
Dena Davidson [00:12:20]:
He said like, respectfully, like, this is not. It's not my time.
Greg Mansur [00:12:25]:
Right.
Dena Davidson [00:12:26]:
But the unspoken there, that Mary hears his response and knows Jesus well enough and knows their relationship well enough. She's not confused about what's gonna happen next. She knows that there's going to be essentially he was saying, yes. He was saying, no, mother, this is not the moment where I reveal my full identity. And you gotta think about Mary. I can't even imagine this, but Mary held in her womb the fullness of the revelation of God, God himself. She held him in her womb. She watched him all his life, grow up.
Dena Davidson [00:13:04]:
She had this prophecy when she takes him in to be circumcised, that he will be for the rising and the falling of many nations and that a sword will pierce her heart. Very encouraging things. Prophetess.
Greg Mansur [00:13:16]:
Right? Right, exactly.
Dena Davidson [00:13:17]:
So she's been hold it says she treasures all these things in her heart. The Bible says. And so we get to this moment and she's been watching Jesus go from place to place and gather disciples. And she's watched him for 30 plus years. And she senses the storm is on the horizon. And she knows it's about to start happening. It's about to go down in Mary's heart. And it wasn't his time, but it was also the first of the signs.
Greg Mansur [00:13:46]:
Right? Right.
Dena Davidson [00:13:47]:
That's so powerful. This is going to be the very first, first revelation where the world is beginning to see what Mary has known from the moment that the angel appeared to her. I just. The unsettledness, all of that is in there. It is right. And it's so powerful. And I can't help but. I can't help but unpack just the deep knowing that existed between Mary and Jesus.
Dena Davidson [00:14:14]:
And I just think it's beautiful.
Greg Mansur [00:14:15]:
Yeah, yeah. And I think. I think the other thing, you know, somewhat of an application point, but the trust that she had, that he would be able to take care of, the need, she'd, like, no problem, you know, like. Like, he can do this. Just do what he says. Even though she hadn't seen him do anything like this yet, so was her confidence in him. That. And man, like, what.
Greg Mansur [00:14:38]:
What a point for us. Right? You know, because so many times in life we don't understand the timing, whatever it is, but we trust, right? We trust. And that's a beautiful thing. Another thing about the hour, that's always a great point to remember. This idea of my hour has not come. My hour always. It's always referring to the fullness of the glory and the fullness of it all coming together in a couple different places. John 12:23.
Greg Mansur [00:15:07]:
The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. So as we see it just getting closer and closer. So this wasn't the time for his full. His sacrifice and his redemptive work. But he was still in a position where he could do something here in this circumstance, which would be the first time that people could say, there's something different about this person. He's not just one of those people, those preachers. He's not like John the Baptist or these other preachers that would have been in the countryside during this time period for the people of Israel. So fascinating.
Dena Davidson [00:15:44]:
That's so good. It's one of those. The Come and see in the previous chapter. Come and see. What were they expecting? The Israelite nation, Their dominant concern was that they were being oppressed by the Roman people. So come and see to them is like, okay, what is the pathway towards the rebellion, Right? What is the pathway to seeing the Israelite nation freed from their oppressors like God had done in the past for the nation of Israel, over and over again, Book of Judges and all throughout the story, it's going to happen again, right? That's what the Messiah is coming to do. Come and see. And so it's also quite a subversive miracle.
Dena Davidson [00:16:27]:
A subversive sign, right? So it's like, come and see. We're going to march into Rome, right, And start overthrowing our oppressors. And actually, Jesus actually provides wine. He lets the feast continue. He lets the marriage continue. He safeguards the honor of this family. This come and see. This was not what they were expecting, to be honest.
Dena Davidson [00:16:53]:
This was a subversive miracle.
Greg Mansur [00:16:56]:
It's one of the reasons I'm so excited about going through the book of John. And I absolutely love the tag of the Jesus most people miss because he's easy to miss. And everybody brings kind of their own expectation and their own filter for what they think Jesus is going to be like. And so taking a strong season as a church and as people who are watching the podcast to really get into the Book of John and understand how is he really revealed himself and what does the scripture say about him, who is he, what is his identity? And then what impact does that have on us? So it's a beautiful. It's a beautiful thing.
Dena Davidson [00:17:38]:
So good. Okay, so then we get into the actual performing of the miracle. So we see six stone water jars gathered. They're just literally there for the Jewish rites of purification, not planning on their assigned being performed.
Greg Mansur [00:17:51]:
Exactly, exactly.
Dena Davidson [00:17:52]:
So then Jesus said to the servants, fill the jars. And they filled them to the brim. And he said to them, now draw some out there. There's no fanfare to this miracle.
Greg Mansur [00:18:01]:
No.
Dena Davidson [00:18:01]:
There's no, like, symbols clashing. There's no Jesus striking them. There's no Jesus putting his hands and saying, father, thank you for hearing. It's literally like, okay, now go serve the wine.
Greg Mansur [00:18:13]:
Exactly. Exactly.
Dena Davidson [00:18:14]:
Jesus is just so aware that it's not his hour. He's still going to perform the sign.
Greg Mansur [00:18:20]:
Yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:18:21]:
But it's. It's not going to be in this. Hey, everyone, watch this moment.
Greg Mansur [00:18:25]:
Yeah, Right, right. Hey, let me. I got something to show you people.
Dena Davidson [00:18:28]:
Exactly.
Greg Mansur [00:18:29]:
Just. Just wait. Just you wait and see.
Dena Davidson [00:18:31]:
Right?
Greg Mansur [00:18:31]:
I love the mom.
Dena Davidson [00:18:32]:
Yes.
Greg Mansur [00:18:32]:
Really quick, you know, you know, this. Do whatever he tells you.
Dena Davidson [00:18:36]:
Yes.
Greg Mansur [00:18:37]:
Like, you know, discipleship. Right.
Dena Davidson [00:18:40]:
Like.
Greg Mansur [00:18:40]:
Like what, what a powerful, just phrase, you know, like, like I'm just going to do whatever he tells me to do. Wow. You know, just think about how much simpler maybe life would be, you know, if we would just do what he tells us to do. You know, I used to tell my kids all the time, just. Just do what we tell you to do. Just do these things.
Dena Davidson [00:18:58]:
Life will go well.
Greg Mansur [00:18:59]:
It will go well for you. It really, really will. We don't have to have this conflict and tension and weirdness in our household, you know, so something about that. But yeah, I mean, just a very simple, very simple act. I'm always amazed at. Again, thinking about, you know, what we bring, what we bring to some of these stories and with the best of intentions. I love film and TV and, you know. You know, and we have this, like, soundtrack playing.
Greg Mansur [00:19:25]:
Right? There's this music playing. The wind begins to quake. Yes. There's all this, like, really cool stuff going on, and it's actually just a very simple fill them with water. You know, I read somewhere that, you know, the people probably would have been mortified to know that the water came from there. So it definitely was, like, kind of behind the scenes. They probably wouldn't have been very pretty vessels. They wouldn't be, like, nice things you'd see in someone's home.
Greg Mansur [00:19:52]:
Probably either in a back room or out in the alley, you know, bring them in, fill them with water. And so just to see his great power in this moment, servants knew what happened, but nobody else did, you know, and there's just great clarity there. Yes.
Dena Davidson [00:20:08]:
That's so good. I think that also speaks. It's a. It's a sanctification image of God, can take the humblest of vessels and turn it into the greatest of wine. I love just practically. I don't think any great Bible scholar would say this way, but Jesus is not sloppy in his miracles, right? He's not just gonna save. He's going to save. He's gonna do abundantly more than we can ask or imagine.
Dena Davidson [00:20:33]:
As it says later in the New Testament, this is the Jesus who's like, I know everyone's a little drunk right now, and they're not gonna appreciate the quality of the wine I'm about to produce. But I am Creator God, and I. I do things with excellence. And I can't even imagine, as the disciples maybe tasting the wine, they watched the miracle be performed. Mary watched the miracle and then thinking, you took this and you made that. Like, who is this? Who is this? That takes this and makes that. And I do think it's a sanctification image of how well Jesus does with humble things. And he can make.
Dena Davidson [00:21:15]:
He can bring greatness out of.
Greg Mansur [00:21:16]:
Right, right. Yeah. No, 100%. 100%, yeah. There's something to be said for, you know, he makes all things new, you know, and just the sanctification process that is going on in our lives. I don't remember who said it. The whole idea of, you know, he loves you just as you are, but he won't leave you that way. You know, he continues to work in your life.
Greg Mansur [00:21:38]:
We continue to grow and mature. And sometimes we get frustrated with ourselves or we get frustrated with our spouses or our kids or the people around us, because we live in such a microwave society and we want everything so quickly and fast. But just to understand, man, I'm not where I was a year ago. I'm not where I was a month ago. You know, I can see God working in my life or see God working my spouse's life. And people, people grow at different ways in different stages. And I may grow more than my wife seasons, my wife grows more than me. But God is always working.
Greg Mansur [00:22:11]:
He's always working. I just, I love that picture of sanctification justification that we have in our lives.
Dena Davidson [00:22:16]:
So good. And he's the God, as John 1 makes clear, Jesus is the God of creation out of nothing. Right. And so if he's the God that can do creation out of nothing, he's for sure the God that can do creation from something that's not great into something that is great. And so I think sometimes this is certainly more application oriented, but we do put limits on God and what he is able to accomplish and achieve from what is. And so I know it's just so, so like my heart to say to God, okay, here's the problems.
Greg Mansur [00:22:50]:
Right?
Dena Davidson [00:22:50]:
Right. Here's the problems in me, here's the problems in that person, here's the problems in this environment. Like you, like, here's probably some possibilities of how you could step in. But Jesus just thinks higher and better thoughts. And if God can bring something out of nothing, he can certainly take what is and it's no obstacle to what he wants.
Greg Mansur [00:23:11]:
Right?
Dena Davidson [00:23:12]:
Right. He is going to bring something great no matter what. The starting equation is 100%.
Greg Mansur [00:23:17]:
We put God in a box. We do so many times, you know, and we just think God can work up to this limit. Here's the line and no further. That's why I love that Scripture in Ephesians all beyond, we can ask or think or imagine. That's just the God that we serve. And I always encourage people too in thinking in those terms because most people, people have some history of seeing God do things either in their life or the life of a family member or friend or something like that to really take note of those things. We forget easily. And so I love just all the Bible says, whether it's communion, do this in remembrance of me.
Greg Mansur [00:23:53]:
The Old Testament stones of remembrance, the way the altars would be constructed to just create, whether it's journaling or notes in your phone or something, something just like remind yourselves. Because when the time comes when you're looking for the miracle, when the wine runs out, in whatever context that looks like in your life, look back and see man. God was there and God was there. And I had no idea God was gonna do that. And he did it. And the same God that came through then is the same God. I'm leaning on now for whatever his will and purpose is for my life. So it's a very powerful image.
Dena Davidson [00:24:27]:
Very powerful.
Greg Mansur [00:24:29]:
Yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:24:29]:
Okay. It concludes with this, and then we'll move on to application. It talks about how great the wine is and how impractical it was that there's like, so complete was the miracle that the master of the feast is stumped. He's like, guys, you organized your. You organized your wedding wrong. And little did he know, like, how badly it was managed. But I just love that. He's just dumbfounded.
Dena Davidson [00:24:55]:
So complete was the miracle. It says this, the first of his signs. The point you made, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him. After this. It goes on to where he went. But I just want to camp there for a minute.
Greg Mansur [00:25:14]:
Yeah, yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:25:15]:
His disciples believed in him.
Greg Mansur [00:25:17]:
Yeah, yeah. I think, again, it's so important that it's not just solving a problem. There was a problem at this wedding, this family. This was a crisis for this family. What are we going to do? And to walk away from this story just thinking, man, Jesus solved the problem. Yes, but it's so much more than that. He revealed who he was, and the result of that revelation was belief in who he was. The disciples saw that and believed.
Greg Mansur [00:25:49]:
And so for there to be that kind of response, because a lot of people will look at Jesus and look at the things that he did, and they'll admire him. They'll be amazed at what he did, but not believe in Him. There's a difference. And so really taking to heart what it means to see Jesus for who he is and not just be an admirer and not just stand in awe, not just clap and applaud. But no, I'm putting my trust in him. He is the Son of God. He is the Logos. He's the Word.
Greg Mansur [00:26:22]:
He's the one that came to be the Messiah. He's the one we've been waiting for all this time. It makes such a huge difference. And so as we consider ways in which God reveals Himself to us through His Son, through the scriptures, just that responsive belief and trust in who he is. So good.
Dena Davidson [00:26:42]:
So amazing. I want to make one more point. So every single one of Jesus miracles, and certainly his signs as well, it declares Jesus's power over something that went wrong in the human story, in Genesis 3. So Genesis 1 and 2 is creation and the universe and humans as God intended them. Genesis 3, Sin enters into the world, and through sin, a host of things happen. Shame enters the human relationship. Death enters the human story, the creation is corrupted, and all of these enemies of God enter the human story. And so every single miracle addresses one of those instances of brokenness.
Dena Davidson [00:27:27]:
So if you look at this miracle and you ask the question, which of those broken enemies of God that came in through Genesis 3, which of those is this one addressing? And I think it's addressing God's enemy of shame.
Greg Mansur [00:27:44]:
Yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:27:45]:
God never meant humans to experience shame. Our soul was not meant to carry shame. Shame is this hiding instinct. It is this such a deep feeling of unworthiness and brokenness, not to the level of reality because we are all broken and deserving of death, but to this level that makes us want to hide from God and hide from others. And it is the very first thing that happens in the garden. Right. When they take of the fruit and they eat it, it says their eyes were open and they realized they were naked, and the very next thing they do is they hide.
Greg Mansur [00:28:22]:
Right.
Dena Davidson [00:28:23]:
That's shame entering the human story. And so I just find it fascinating. This is a story about Jesus saving people from shame.
Greg Mansur [00:28:31]:
Yeah. I love that.
Dena Davidson [00:28:32]:
Saving people from the need to hide from God and hide from. From their fellow human beings that God meant for them to be in good connected relationship with. I think it's so powerful because I think sometimes we mistakenly think God wants us to be ashamed. Right. But guilt. Guilt is when we accurately see the wrongs that we have done, and it makes us run towards God to get rid of our guilt. That's correct. We should all feel guilty.
Dena Davidson [00:29:03]:
But shame, this instinct to hide from God and others, that's not meant to be something that the human soul carries. And I think this miracle demonstrates that. Mary knew.
Greg Mansur [00:29:15]:
Yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:29:16]:
My. My son would not want this family to be ashamed of their family's wedding of their son or their daughter's wedding.
Greg Mansur [00:29:23]:
Yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:29:23]:
And so he saved them from that shame.
Greg Mansur [00:29:25]:
Wow. That's a great word, Dena. Thank you. I love that. I love that. Yeah. There's something about the. Again, just the transforming work, the transforming power of what Jesus came to do.
Greg Mansur [00:29:38]:
There's even maybe a slight reference to. You've got these jars, which were purification and cleansing and ceremonial law and all these things. And Hebrews talks at length about how Jesus is better. I've come to do something different, and I'm gonna provide this means now to be restored to your creator, God, through my sacrifice.
Dena Davidson [00:30:03]:
Wow, that's powerful. And so he's literally looking at these
Greg Mansur [00:30:05]:
jars of purification is one of the
Dena Davidson [00:30:07]:
things I was thinking of, meant to remove their shame. Right. Like, if you go through all of these rights, you're gonna be free of that shame, and you'll be able to be clean before men and clean before God. And Jesus is like, you know what jars I want to use? I want to use those purification jars because I'm about to do something better.
Greg Mansur [00:30:26]:
Yeah, yeah. Because he didn't need those jars.
Dena Davidson [00:30:28]:
They didn't need those.
Greg Mansur [00:30:29]:
Like what you said before. Like, he could have created wine.
Dena Davidson [00:30:32]:
Yes.
Greg Mansur [00:30:33]:
Out of nothing. Because that's who he is. That's how he created.
Dena Davidson [00:30:36]:
Yes.
Greg Mansur [00:30:37]:
But the fact that he had them bring those and then transformed it into something that was a more powerful example of.
Dena Davidson [00:30:43]:
So good.
Greg Mansur [00:30:44]:
This is who I am to. This is who I am, and this is what I've come to do.
Dena Davidson [00:30:49]:
Yes.
Greg Mansur [00:30:49]:
I think that's just a very powerful image. And. And couple that with the shame that you talked about, I just think that's a great. I just. I love it. And I think it's the reason why, again, the distinction between. It's not just a miracle. It is a miracle, but it's a sign.
Greg Mansur [00:31:04]:
It's a sign. And that's a really important distinction because we want to make sure we see Jesus for who he was.
Dena Davidson [00:31:11]:
And I'm just laughing at everyone that's read this passage, and I'll raise my hand at this. And we're like, okay, yeah, Jesus is pro. Wine. You know, the obvious application is, I can enjoy a glass of wine. And you're like, whoa, epic missing of the point.
Greg Mansur [00:31:26]:
Right, right, right. It's like we.
Dena Davidson [00:31:29]:
And this is just kind of an very understandable Bible hermeneutical and Bible interpretation error. We want the Bible to answer the questions that we're asking.
Greg Mansur [00:31:41]:
Yeah, yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:31:42]:
And it does. It absolutely does answer those questions. But let's make sure we are first understanding the questions that the Bible says it's answering.
Greg Mansur [00:31:50]:
Right.
Dena Davidson [00:31:51]:
Question here is God's identity. He has revealed himself as God, the God that can release us from our shame.
Greg Mansur [00:31:57]:
Yeah, yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:31:58]:
So application wise, what should we do with this passage? Go enjoy a glass of wine. Is that.
Greg Mansur [00:32:03]:
Go enjoy a glass of wine. I've never had one, so. But I'll have one for my wife, you know, tonight. I think. I think the trust, I think, is a big one, you know, because we all go through seasons where we have a crisis, we have an issue, there's something pressing, something runs out, and we just need the Lord to act in some way. And we may not understand all of the timing, but are we willing to. It's that I don't maybe, you know, who said it's the. You know, when I can't see his hand, I trust his heart.
Greg Mansur [00:32:38]:
You know, I trace. Trace his heart. There's a. There's some.
Dena Davidson [00:32:40]:
That's amazing.
Greg Mansur [00:32:40]:
Charles Spurgeon or some. Some famous. Always some face and purpose.
Dena Davidson [00:32:44]:
Keller or Spurgeon.
Greg Mansur [00:32:45]:
Yeah. C.S. lewis. You know, some. Somebody said. Mark Clark said once, you know, somebody, when we can't see his hand, trust his heart. And so this idea of, yeah, sometimes his ways are not our ways, his thoughts are not our thoughts. In fact, it goes on to say, his ways are higher than our ways, and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts.
Greg Mansur [00:33:06]:
And so just trying to really trust. I use this example a lot in my teaching because you have small children. I had small children. I have grandchildren now. And we want them to trust us because we have a perspective and we have an understanding about life that they just don't have yet. And so in their life, why can't I go play in the street? Why can't I have ice cream three times a day? Why can't I do these things? Well, as the parent, you know, and so you're asking your child, hey, trust me that I know some things that you don't. And so I just think when people go through hardship and difficulty, and we all do, to understand that God meets us in those moments, you know, Jesus is there. Jesus is present in those moments.
Greg Mansur [00:33:50]:
And just to say, I trust you, I don't understand. I don't agree with what's going on, but at the same time, I'm not going to let it. I'm going to let it draw me to you, not pull me away from you. And I think that's just a really powerful. That's one of the things that I see, particularly with Mary's understanding of the time, just this idea that hours not yet come because we struggle with the timing. We may believe that it's coming, but it's not coming fast enough. You know, we want it when we want it when we want it, you know, and so that would be one for me is just to really develop a spiritual discipline of trust and peace in the midst of confusing times and not understanding why things are happening the way they are so good.
Dena Davidson [00:34:42]:
And then I just camping on what something you said earlier. Do whatever he tells you, like, while you're in that trusting relationship. Mary was like, okay, your time's not yet come, but we're still gonna do whatever you tell us.
Greg Mansur [00:34:53]:
Right? Right. Yeah. That's a powerful testimony. It really is.
Dena Davidson [00:34:58]:
My application thought is to ask God the question is there any shame you want to release me from? Yeah, I think sometimes this is the funniest thought where, like, I deserve to feel ashamed. And it's like, that is such a tough statement because it's true and it's false, Right? So the truth is you did something possibly that you deserve to feel guilty about. You know, you mess up, you know that you did wrong. But because of what God says about you and his heart towards you, you are not meant to be ashamed. Shame is not something that he wants you to carry. So if there is a shame that you are allowing to rest on you, and you're kind of. You're nurturing that shame and you're dwelling it because you think you deserve it, I invite you to go into God's presence and to bring that shame, that instinct to hide from God and hide from others and say, can you heal me of this? Can you take this water and turn this into wine? Can you take this shame and turn it into a sense of belonging and belovedness and daughter or son, the nature of being adopted. What can you do with my shame? Bring it into his presence and invite him to heal it.
Dena Davidson [00:36:18]:
Because I think the moral of this story is that there is a God who wants to free people from shame.
Greg Mansur [00:36:25]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we talk so oftentimes about his sacrifice and about redemption, and we talk about the sin and we talk about the pain and we talk about the punishment. We talk about but shame, too. He took that. He took our shame. And so it's not there for us any longer. So why do we live in that? So understanding truly the scope of his sacrifice and the scope of what he's accomplished for us and to live in that new identity, you know, the enemy, he's the accuser of the brethren, right? And so we all deal with just the whisper in our head all the time of all of our past failures and all of our past mistakes, and we turn left and we should have turned right. And so to be able to just really rest in the knowledge that that shame has been taken care of because of Jesus, because he's the Son of God, because he's the Word, because he's Logos, you know, because of these things.
Greg Mansur [00:37:19]:
So it's a wonderful. It's so much more than just raising a glass, you know, tonight, right? So much more. So I hope people really just marinate in that and just really rest in what Jesus has done for them.
Dena Davidson [00:37:33]:
I love it.
Greg Mansur [00:37:34]:
Good.
Dena Davidson [00:37:34]:
Well, if you liked John 2, keep listening, because we will be back in John 2. And just prayerfully for you as you are thinking about this message and this miracle that Jesus performed, take a moment and process it with Jesus. And if there's someone in your life that you know struggles with shame or even just would be mind blown by this idea that we serve a God that would care enough about a family having to endure shame, forward this on to them and invite them to listen. So glad that you've been with us listening to this podcast and we'll see you next week.
Greg Mansur [00:38:12]:
Awesome. Thank you.