Curt Harlow [00:00:00]:
Hello, my friends. It's Pastor Curt from Bayside Auburn here, and always I'm joined with the frontal lobe of Thrive College, Dena Davidson. How you doing today, Dena?
Dena Davidson [00:00:08]:
I'm good. I'm drinking just water today. I already had too much coffee.
Curt Harlow [00:00:12]:
Really? I've got a wonderful cup of green tea. We are in Ephesians. So if you wanna follow along here at the Bible study where we take the passages that are being taught on the weekends at Bayside Church And we use them to try to develop our hermeneutic skills. These are the tools we use to get to the original meaning of the text and our exegetical skills. This is the attitude or posture we take towards the text to get the original meaning. And this week, the topic in all of our Bayside churches is Not Without You. Basically, it's a study in the theology of the body of Christ. Why each and every member of the body of Christ is as important as the other.
Curt Harlow [00:01:01]:
And of course, we could go to the classic passage in Corinthians to study this. There's abundant places in the Bible, but my favorite, Dena, is in Ephesians chapter 4, specifically verses 7 through 16. I would say the context here is found in Ephesians 4:7. So, so by the way, finish that thought. Take out your Bible and follow with us. When I'm referring to these verses, that's what I'm asking you to do, unless you're driving, then you can just listen. But Ephesians 4:7 is the contextual verse, the verse that sets up the topic, I believe, where Paul says, "But to each one of us, grace has been given as Christ apportioned it." Now, their saving grace, this is the grace that allows the Holy Spirit to come in we don't deserve, and he regenerates us, you know, as we learn in John chapter 3, from the inside out. That's not the grace that Paul's talking about here.
Curt Harlow [00:02:00]:
He's talking about the grace to perform our role, to have our gifts, to do our job, to be our function in the body of Christ. So what am I missing context-wise? And read the passage to us.
Dena Davidson [00:02:16]:
Oh gosh. I mean, the first few verses of chapter 4 are basically some of my favorites in all of the Bible. It's just, it's a transition to how we're supposed to live as believers who've been saved by grace. And all of the great theological themes that Paul has been developing have led up to this point to say, "Here's then how we should live." And we should live as part of the body of Christ, which is what this is going to go on to say.
Curt Harlow [00:02:42]:
Alright, verse 11 through—
Dena Davidson [00:02:44]:
Verse 7?
Curt Harlow [00:02:45]:
Go all the way down to 15. You start wherever you want. No, no, let's go all the way down to 16. I'm sorry.
Dena Davidson [00:02:53]:
Alright, I'll pick up in 11. Alright. "And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God." to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way to him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
Curt Harlow [00:03:44]:
When each part working properly builds itself up in love. That being the key application, the key lesson to all this. Now, this is a perfect passage for the Bible study because I believe this is one of the most egregiously misinterpreted— you know what us Bible teachers like? We like it when other Bible teachers egregiously misinterpret so we can come on podcasts and correct them. But I really do think the way we teach verse 11 and 12 is we are missing the point. It's probably not super harmful the way we teach it, but it is certainly missing the point. So we often teach this, or when we read it, we read it this way to ourselves. So Christ himself gave apostles and prophets and evangelists and pastors and teachers to equip the people. So which one am I?
Dena Davidson [00:04:41]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:04:41]:
And so we read it like it's an Enneagram. Oh, so I must be— I bet you I'm a 2, which is prophets, with a wing of 5, which is teacher. I'm a prophetic teacher. And, um, that's not the meaning of it all. It's not what color is your parachute. It's not the biblical Myers-Briggs test. I don't even think this list is exhaustive here, Dena. I don't think that Paul's saying there are only these 5 functions in the church, and if you don't fall majorly into these 5 functions, we often teach that, that, you know, you gotta have all 5 functions.
Curt Harlow [00:05:16]:
Some churches actually kind of build their board around trying to see those functions in there. And we make all sorts of assumptions about what a pastor is versus what a teacher is. Even though this is never brought— Paul does not break that down, right, in the passage. He didn't say pastors are the caring one, teachers are the smart ones, right? You know, it's kind of inferred. So then if it's not a spiritual, um, Enneagram, why is the Apostle Paul saying, uh, why is he listing all of these different functions at the beginning of this 'each one should perform their own part in love' passage.
Dena Davidson [00:05:58]:
Yeah. Well, I was listening to a great Martyn Lloyd-Jones sermon, so I'm going to cheat here. And he said that, picking up what you're saying, Curt, like he picked up on that theme of like, we read this about us, but the emphasis for Paul is on the word 'he.' Right.
Curt Harlow [00:06:14]:
He. Right.
Dena Davidson [00:06:16]:
So Paul is not writing actually about us and these important roles in the church that if you don't have these— Yes. The emphasis is on how the body of Christ is being built up because Christ has put these people into place. So he gave. And so I think if we're putting the emphasis on Christ, then we're going to be opening ourselves up to a better interpretation of the whole passage. This is about what God wants to do in his body, not about us and our role, and we have to make sure we get it exactly perfect and Every church has to have these 5 rules.
Curt Harlow [00:06:49]:
What a great principle. But make the Bible about Jesus.
Dena Davidson [00:06:52]:
Yes.
Curt Harlow [00:06:53]:
That's a great Bible. Eric, you know, that's why you watch the podcast. Okay, so here's the same way I would say it. This is about God is so passionate about us being unified and mature. And then later Paul's gonna tell us what a unified, mature person looks like. He's so passionate about us growing up and getting on the same page that he's lavished the church with gifts.
Dena Davidson [00:07:19]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:07:19]:
And the gifts are apostolic and prophetic and evangelistic and pastoral and teaching. And I think there's even more gifts that if you look at all the witness of scripture, there's even more gifts than that, that God has given the church all for the purpose of growing us up and getting us on the same page. So what Paul's saying here is, man, Isn't this amazing how much Christ has given us so that we can not remain as infants and be tossed and turned around?
Dena Davidson [00:07:55]:
I was visiting one of the churches in this area, Jesus Culture, great church in our area. And they had this little thing they say, it's like part of their culture. They say like, "Around here, everyone peels potatoes." And so what they meant is like, hey, when you show up to a family function, you go into a family dinner at your mom's house, you're not like, oh, well, I'm the person who cooks the meat. That's what I do. Right? And oh, sorry, but I only do salads. I can't really help with this process. No, when you show up and you're there for a family function, you do whatever needs to get done. And I love that that's part of their culture.
Dena Davidson [00:08:32]:
Cuz I think so many times we take this verse and We want to say no, like, "Oh no, sorry, I can't work in children's ministry because actually, you know what I'm great at? I'm great at preaching." And, "Oh, sorry, I can't stand at the door and pass out bulletins 'cause my real gift is prophecy," you know? And we want to say all of these nos and we try—
Curt Harlow [00:08:53]:
Well, this is the prophets. They don't wanna peel the potatoes.
Dena Davidson [00:08:57]:
They don't wanna peel the potatoes. There's not enough control, to be honest, in peeling potatoes.
Curt Harlow [00:09:03]:
I would like to tell you, potato peeling God has for you in your future.
Dena Davidson [00:09:07]:
Oh, exactly.
Curt Harlow [00:09:08]:
Yeah, I'm not gonna peel them myself.
Dena Davidson [00:09:10]:
100%.
Curt Harlow [00:09:11]:
Uh, when I show up to the family functions, I would like everyone else to cook while I watch the NFL in the other room.
Dena Davidson [00:09:17]:
That can't possibly be true because you're a great cook.
Curt Harlow [00:09:19]:
Well, it's not true, but it is kind of true. Um, yeah, precisely correct. Now, the beautiful thing here is that Paul's telling them, like you said, how to how to come up to the calling, respond to God's grace by coming up to calling. And he says it's to be mature and it's to be in unity. And then before he tells us what maturity and unity looks like, he tells us what immaturity looks like. So here's my question for you. Do you get seasick? You get driving sickness? Any?
Dena Davidson [00:09:55]:
Okay, so I used to be able to read in the car. And now I'm in deep denial about this, but I can't read in the car anymore. I've not been on a boat long enough to know if I get seasick.
Curt Harlow [00:10:06]:
I can only read in the car while driving.
Dena Davidson [00:10:09]:
Oh, that sounds safe, Curt. Let's hope that's an Audible situation.
Curt Harlow [00:10:13]:
No, that's a joke. No letters, please. So I have always read this passage and I love the— it was NSAB that you were in?
Dena Davidson [00:10:23]:
What is my version? ESV.
Curt Harlow [00:10:25]:
ESV. So ESV, a little clunky on the—
Dena Davidson [00:10:30]:
This is a very classic Pauline clunky, what are you trying to say here, Paul? Could you have more commas and run-on sentences?
Curt Harlow [00:10:37]:
The NIV makes it a little bit more readable in English. "Then we will no longer be infants tossed back and forth by the waves and blown here and there by every wind of teaching, by cunning craftiness of people." I would always skip verse 14 and go, yeah, yeah, yeah. What I want to get down here, and this is where I think the NIV says it to me in a very readable way. The syntax is very good for English. For him, the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting limb, grows and builds itself up in love as each part does its work. So you had these, these in love as each part. And I would skip down to that. Then a couple summers ago, I went on a boat ride with my small group one day, and we're on the ocean.
Curt Harlow [00:11:20]:
And it was a smaller boat. And it was like a charter boat to go sightseeing. And we'd pay— we chipped in and paid a lot of money. And the day of the boat came, charter came up, and it was 5-foot waves. And so we're like, well, you know, I mean, it'll probably clear up. Well, we all went down to the harbor, still 5-foot waves. And we were like, well, maybe it'll settle down once we get on the boat. And by the way, I have to tell you, there was an infant with us and an 80-year-old woman.
Dena Davidson [00:11:50]:
Nice.
Curt Harlow [00:11:51]:
And a guy that did CrossFit named Ryan, who's really strong. And, um, and so we call the harbor— the captain on his cell phone. He's like, I can't come into the harbor, it's too rough to come into the harbor. And so I'm going to send a little dinghy in there, it's going to get you guys like 4 or 5 at a time. So I went on the first dinghy, and we get to the boat, and the boat is just doing massive rolls. And I can barely get on the boat. The second I get on the boat, I get on my cell phone. I try to call my friend Mark and tell him, your mom, your 80-year-old mom is not going to get on this boat.
Curt Harlow [00:12:27]:
And there's no way the infant should come on the boat. The call won't go through.
Dena Davidson [00:12:31]:
Oh, man.
Curt Harlow [00:12:32]:
In the next boat, the very next dinghy boat is the mom and the 80-year-old mom and the infant and the 80-year-old grandma. And the infant and Ryan, the CrossFit guy. So Ryan literally throws his, uh, mother-in-law, grandmother-in-law to me. She— there's like 3 of us and we catch her. I don't know how they got the infant on board because I just said at that point to stop looking because, uh, you know, I didn't— when the court case came up, I wanted to say I wasn't looking.
Dena Davidson [00:13:06]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:13:07]:
So then what happened is I had taken Dramamine very early that morning because I didn't I didn't feel that well the night before, and so I wanted to make sure. And there's probably 3 of us that had taken Dramamine way before. There's a few people that took it like right at the harbor. Doesn't work if you take it right at the harbor.
Dena Davidson [00:13:24]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:13:25]:
Literally everyone— how do I put this nice? Everyone did what you imagine right now that they were doing. And it was just horrible. It was horrible. Now, to make things worse, we told the captain after about an hour, we're all dying here, take us back. And he said, no, I can't. I've already spent the money on the gas. So we're staying out here unless you give me another $1,000. What? I ask you, Dena, what did we do?
Dena Davidson [00:14:00]:
Give him $1,000.
Curt Harlow [00:14:01]:
We gave him another $1,000.
Dena Davidson [00:14:03]:
You owe me.
Curt Harlow [00:14:03]:
We committed the crime. We were exhorted.
Dena Davidson [00:14:07]:
Yes, you were.
Curt Harlow [00:14:08]:
What is the word I'm looking for?
Dena Davidson [00:14:10]:
Extorted?
Curt Harlow [00:14:11]:
Extorted. We were victims of the crime. And we were glad to be victims of that crime.
Dena Davidson [00:14:17]:
Anything.
Curt Harlow [00:14:17]:
So now, instead of skipping to the part I like, I read this part and go, what is the price of not leaning into the gifts that God has given the church to make me mature? What is the price? It's to be an infant thrown onto a boat and tossed back and forth with a bunch of sick people.
Dena Davidson [00:14:42]:
Yes. And this is Paul, right? So he's having all of this success with ministry to the Gentiles. Then he's going back and he's visiting the churches he planted. And he's finding that over and over again, error, theological error has crept into the church. And so all of these fruits of his work are being corrupted by these lies. And so for him, this is very— this is not theoretical, Curt. This is very personal. He's having to write Galatians, Ephesians, like all of these things, because these errors are starting to creep into the church to say things like Jesus's atonement from the cross is not sufficient for salvation.
Dena Davidson [00:15:26]:
You also need the works and you need to be circumcised and to stay away from these foods. So I think It's very personal for Paul, and not to skip too much to application, but this is happening today. We are absolutely seeing the American church at large being tossed to and fro by one TikTok reel to someone else's platform who has their thoughts about how the Bible's being interpreted and their thoughts about, you know, how Christianity should be applied in this country. And we're literally bouncing from person to person, voice to voice instead of taking in the whole of Scripture, the whole witness of what church history says that the Gospel is and what we should be paying attention to. We're paying attention to the small schemes of humans instead of the large-scale narratives of what God has clearly communicated in his Word.
Curt Harlow [00:16:19]:
I think that the seeds of disunity are most obviously seen in the level of outrage. So there are times where you could see Apostle Paul especially, he's outraged. Galatians, he begins with a very outrageous statement about what they should do about their belief in circumcision. There are times for outrage. But we are awash in not the great moment of outrage that is needed to speak against a great untruth, We're just awash in people being outraged about everything.
Dena Davidson [00:16:59]:
Everything.
Curt Harlow [00:17:00]:
Everything. So, you know, the size of your church creates an outrage. Your conviction on secondary issues creates an outrage. Where you get your worship music from creates an outrage. You know, just literally technique. Technique and preference are elevated to the place of main and plain doctrines. And then even when that— I'm not saying don't have those dialogues. In fact, I think those dialogues are very important.
Curt Harlow [00:17:34]:
I think a lot of technique and preference is maybe not honoring to God or not the best way to do it in this moment. But we don't come to each other in love, speaking the truth in love. We don't come to each other as brothers and sisters that are concerned for each other. We come as the doctrinal police with outrage. And I just, for one, and it's just so grievous to me. It's so grievous to me when I see people that their whole purpose is to be outraged at churches and church convictions. Yeah, for things that should not be making, for things that are just a distraction, mostly, for the most part, just a distraction. And it really is exactly this passage.
Curt Harlow [00:18:28]:
It gets— there's so much drama around it. And also, it's not just true in churches, it's true for all of our dialogue. You know, even within different political bents and political movements, you see this sort of incredible infighting instead of civil discourse. It's almost like we've lost the ability to talk about complicated topics. We've lost the ability to learn. We are so awash in insecurity. We are puffed up in our convictions without being able to listen at all. You know, I was talking about a particular issue, and I won't even mention it because it'll be a distraction with someone.
Curt Harlow [00:19:12]:
I said, Remember when we used to be able to talk about this?
Dena Davidson [00:19:14]:
Yeah, we—
Curt Harlow [00:19:16]:
I used— there's some things that I used to be able to talk about from the pulpit and would not cause me any amount of harm or disgruntledness. It would cause some dialogue, some interesting follow-up questions, some people going, I'm not sure if I believe that, Pastor Curt. Now it's like, oh my goodness, people will talk to 50 other people before they talk to me. When they do talk to me, it's— they've made up their mind and and are moving on down the road.
Dena Davidson [00:19:44]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:19:45]:
It's sad. It's sad.
Dena Davidson [00:19:47]:
I just finished rereading A Non-Anxious Presence by Mark Sayers. Great read. And it basically said, we're in this moment where anxiety, not the clinical anxiety, but the anxious feelings have absolutely permeated the fabric of society. So he said, in an anxious society, What people do is, because the stronghold of culture is no longer absorbing the anxiety of culture, right? Like America used to be this mythic greatness, we could trust in America, but that's been threatened in the last several years. And so because that stronghold is no longer absorbing our anxiety, what we're doing is we're turning to our tribes, we're turning to the voices that we follow, and we're asking those voices to provide us the security and the clarity that the stronghold of our culture used to provide for us. All of that to say, this is actually not a bad place for Christians to be, because we always have had the same stronghold. It's not the culture, it is not the tribe, it is Christ. Like, Christ is our stronghold.
Dena Davidson [00:20:54]:
The psalmist says, "The name of the Lord is a strong tower. The righteous run to it and are safe." I think that's what Paul is doing here. He is saying like, hey, If you are not rooted in Christ, if Christ is not your stronghold, if he's not your anchor, to switch metaphors, your head, then you are literally gonna be tossed here and tossed there. And you are going to be feeling that sick feeling that you guys felt on the boat. That's one option for you. Or you can make Christ your secure place. You can make him your foundation, your stronghold.
Curt Harlow [00:21:26]:
And then we get to, how do you do that?
Dena Davidson [00:21:28]:
How do you do that?
Curt Harlow [00:21:29]:
One of my very favorite phrases in all of the New Testament, Instead, instead, speaking the truth in love. If I wanted to help a skeptic realize the brilliance of the Bible, let's, let's not even talk about inspiration yet. If I wanted you to take a step towards inspiration and just acknowledge the brilliance of the Bible, I would show you this phrase: speaking the truth in love. How do we get back to where our stronghold— I love that metaphor— is not the institution of the church. It's not patriotism. It's not my political party. It's not my family or my heritage. It's not even my education or my resume.
Curt Harlow [00:22:14]:
My source, my stronghold is Christ. How do we get there? We have to engage in speaking the truth in love. What we were describing a minute ago is speaking the truth in our age. And I can't tell you how many people have come to me and said, Pastor Curt, I got this really challenging situation. It's my in-laws, it's at work, it's on the team I'm on, it's in a class I'm in. And if I go this way, there's going to be this consequences. And if I go that way, there's going to be that consequences. And I'm not sure what to do.
Curt Harlow [00:22:52]:
How do I stay faithful to God in this very complex situation where it looks like there's no way out? Speak the truth in love. So sometimes you got to speak the truth, and it's not going to go well. And sometimes you have to measure what you know is true by saying it in the most loving and kind way. And you've heard me say this to the Thrive students many, many times. The secret here, too, is recognizing which side of that equation you're likely to get wrong. So I'm a blurter. As much as I just told everyone to not speak in outrage, I am a blurter.
Dena Davidson [00:23:31]:
Outraged at the outrage.
Curt Harlow [00:23:32]:
Yeah. The later the day goes, the less filtering I do, and I don't start with a lot of filter. So I am constantly having to say to myself, if Christ, if my mission, if my goal, if my source, my stronghold, my purpose really is Christ above all things, I'm going to have to figure out a way to say what I need to say in a more loving way. For me, that usually means not saying it in front of other people. If I have something hard to say to someone, saying it in a way that doesn't shame them in front of someone else. It usually means saying it as a learner. So maybe I don't have the facts right. So can I position this as a question instead of an accusation? It usually means a tone of voice that is different.
Curt Harlow [00:24:21]:
It usually means a heart check that goes, I'm not trying to win an argument or keep a scorecard where I found out something you're doing wrong, and I know it's wrong, and therefore, I feel better about me because I caught you. And all of that just pushes me back to Jesus really well. All of that makes me go, oh, Jesus, Holy Spirit, where are you right now? I need you. This is not doable without your help. Now, I know other people, they have this soft, wonderful heart, and they're not trying to shame anyone. They'd never even think about shaming anyone. But they also probably need a little more courage in saying the truth. They've let a child or a husband or a wife or a boss— and they've enabled some sin by not calling it out.
Curt Harlow [00:25:22]:
And I'm on the truth mistake side there. You could be on the love mistake side as well.
Dena Davidson [00:25:30]:
Yeah. Absolutely, and I think also there's the little truths of what to do about this situation or conflict, and then there's also the big truths of the Gospel that we need to be speaking to each other. We need to over and over again, in love, be reminding people, reminding ourselves, and reminding those that we love that there is a God, that he has spoken, that he has called us to live a life worthy of the calling that we have received, that we are part of the body of Christ, All of these theological themes that Paul has been developing, I think, are also in mind here when he says, "Speak the truth in love." Absolutely. As he's having to write Galatians, I think he's saying this phrase to himself, like, "All right, maybe that part was a little harsh, Paul. You need to speak the truth in love. Like, you need to end with a little bit of encouragement." You know?
Curt Harlow [00:26:24]:
Sure.
Dena Davidson [00:26:24]:
I think he has that in mind here.
Curt Harlow [00:26:26]:
So the Corinthians is literally that dynamic. He just blasts and blasts, and then he goes, "Hey, you know—" He's like, "Do you want me to come to you with love?" You know how much I love you.
Dena Davidson [00:26:35]:
Yes, yes, exactly.
Curt Harlow [00:26:37]:
Yeah, I was just speaking the truth in love is such a brilliant phrase. And that's such a great contextual point. It's corrective. And it is also proclaiming. It's proclaiming the gospel to each other. It's proclaiming the nearness of Christ to each other. It's proclaiming that the Holy Spirit, that we're not orphans, and the Holy Spirit is going to strengthen us and empower us. And be with us.
Curt Harlow [00:27:02]:
It's not just corrective truth, it's anchoring truth.
Dena Davidson [00:27:07]:
Yes. I think how many times we spend time on our disagreements, but we don't spend enough time proclaiming our agreements. That's great. And man, the world needs to see that while Christians disagree over the role of women in ministry, and Christians disagree over the role of politics and the role of Christians in politics, all of these things that we disagree about, there is such unity of witness when it comes to the nature, the character of God, the respect and stance of Scripture, salvation by grace through faith, all of these main and plain truths, we agree. And we need to be proclaiming that with a lot more love and a lot more clarity.
Curt Harlow [00:27:47]:
I had someone in my family, they've since passed away, who was of a different wing of the Christian body of Christ than I was. And I was a brand new Christian. And all he wanted to do was fight theology with me. I mean, it's like, I didn't see him a whole lot. Whenever I did see him, it was immediate.
Dena Davidson [00:28:06]:
He would go straight to the disagreement.
Curt Harlow [00:28:08]:
You believe in this? How can you believe in that? And boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Yeah. And mostly probably because I didn't have a lot of answers back then. I didn't know what I was talking about a lot back then. Yeah. But more so because it just grieved me as a young Christian. I think I understood this more than some of us that allow ourselves to get cynical do. It just like, it grieved me that this was another Christian and that we were having this automatic interaction.
Curt Harlow [00:28:38]:
So finally I said to him, I said, listen, I'm not going to answer that question. I'm not going to talk to you about that until you and I have had 10 discussions about what we agree on. Yeah, because we agree on about 90%, and the 10% we disagree on, you're very passionate about. But I don't want to talk about that until we talk about the 90%. So 10 solid conversations about what we agree on. Can't just be passing, has to be in-depth. And then I will answer your question. And that did two things.
Curt Harlow [00:29:08]:
Number one, it made him stop doing that. And number two, gave me time to learn. So I knew what to say.
Dena Davidson [00:29:14]:
But crafty. That's good.
Curt Harlow [00:29:16]:
But yeah, it's such a great point, Dana, that it's the proclamation of truth. It's the positive truth. Okay. So let's get to my favorite part. Okay. We will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, the source, the stronghold, that is Christ. From him, the whole body joined and held together by every supporting ligament. So again, this Paul's favorite metaphor for the church is it's all of the parts of the body and how they work together.
Curt Harlow [00:29:48]:
You know, we have a very Greek understanding of the body. We are— we like to dissect it. We think that we are a pulmonary system and a nervous system, and we're all these systems, and we're not. We're us. Our emotions are largely controlled by bugs in our gut as much as our brain, as much as how our feet feel. At the end of the day, we're us. We're just us. And Paul loves this metaphor of of we are this giant body that cannot do anything without every part.
Curt Harlow [00:30:20]:
And then he says it this way, and this is the NIV: builds itself in love as each part does its work. Now, here's why I love this so much. As a pastor, I'm always asking the question, what will grow the kingdom of God? What will grow the kingdom of God? So small groups, small groups will grow the kingdom of God. And let's do Let's have everyone get on a discipleship path and do this sort of dialogue, what we're doing right now in a small group, and learn the Bible and get friends and hold each other accountable and pray for each other. Small groups. That's the strategy. Or incredible worship on Sunday morning. Let's just come into the presence of God every single week as a family and worship together.
Curt Harlow [00:31:00]:
Or children's ministry. Let's train up children in the ways that they should go. And it's like I'm tossed and turned by every strategy that's out there. And I love them all. And I believe in the one I just heard of last. The last person, the last brilliant pastor I read or listened to, that's the way to grow the kingdom of God. And then I come to this passage and I go, oh, it's not that hard. It's so much easier and biblical and Jesus-y than I make it in my mind.
Curt Harlow [00:31:32]:
Here it is. I gotta get everyone loving each other. And I gotta get everyone doing their part. And someone's gonna be kids ministry, and someone's gonna be small group. And if I just work my hardest to get everyone loving each other and everyone does their part, then as that happens, we are mature. That's literally the definition of maturity. It's not $3 theological words. It's not scripture memorization, which is spectacular.
Curt Harlow [00:32:03]:
It's not church attendance, which is spectacular. It's not heartfelt worship, which is spectacular. I think all those things are the fruit of we've positioned our heart in love first to Christ as our source, then to each other. And everyone's out of the stands and into the game, as Pastor Ray would say. Yeah. And the second you read it, you just go, Yeah, that'll absolutely work. Yeah, we would, we would not be able to contain the growth that would happen both spiritually and depth in the person and growth in the influence and expanse of the kingdom, people getting saved, if we all love Christ and loved each other, and then everyone was doing their job. Amen.
Curt Harlow [00:32:51]:
So that's my book. In Love, as each part does its work. It's only got a title. There's no chapters. You don't need anything. No intro. It's one. That's my bestselling book, Kevin Thompson.
Dena Davidson [00:33:03]:
So don't you think it's kind of a counterintuitive idea though, especially at a church like Bayside where you just assume someone else has got this? Like, oh, Auburn, couple thousand people, someone else will say yes, right? Someone else will do it.
Curt Harlow [00:33:19]:
It's actually the beauty of a church plant that we're doing in Auburn is that you begin with the assumption that no one else is doing it. And right now, after 2 years, we are in danger of slipping into the— so we have that first wave of very hardworking volunteers that is very tired of showing up to set up very early and being in a room where the maximum amount of children legally allowed, you're in charge of. And then people going, oh, yeah, they're growing and they're doing really good. We started with zero, we're running 1,700 on the weekend. You're doing good. Yeah, that's a real dynamic and a real problem. I think it's deeper than that. I think there is a— there's an overwhelmedness in the scurry.
Curt Harlow [00:34:09]:
What's the book you love so much?
Dena Davidson [00:34:10]:
A Non-Anxious Presence. A Non-Anxious Presence.
Curt Harlow [00:34:12]:
There's so much of an anxious presence in our culture. To say yes to things feels like adding expectation, anxiety to my life. Yeah, I'm gonna schedule in volunteering, I'm gonna schedule in small group. And, you know, one of the weird counterintuitive things is if you want people to attend something, when you tell them 2 months ahead, they go, I could never do that. I'm too busy. I'm too anxious. Kids and the soccer. And it's, I can never come to that thing.
Curt Harlow [00:34:42]:
And then if you text them an hour before, what are you doing? Oh, nothing. Yeah. There's nothing. I'm kind of lonely right now, actually. Yes. Yeah. I wish someone would invite me to a thing so I could be with people. I guess they don't love me.
Curt Harlow [00:34:57]:
And you text them right before.
Dena Davidson [00:34:58]:
I'm gonna go find a different church 'cause I don't feel connected. Yes.
Curt Harlow [00:35:02]:
And so I think that part of what's keeping us in the stands is, we feel that we have too much anxiety in our life. I think the other thing that's keeping us in the stands too much is inferiority or superiority. Instead of really seeing each other as peers and seeing value in each other, we think, I'm not able to keep up with those guys. That's— he's making that announcement for the spiritual and the talented people, not me, right? Um, that's the Dena Davidsons. There's the ones that do that. He's not speaking to me. Or, you know, I mean, I'm not going to waste my time doing that.
Dena Davidson [00:35:50]:
I'm actually the prophet, you know, so it's not really a prophet role.
Curt Harlow [00:35:53]:
Potatoes. I'm not wasting my time doing that. That other people can do that that are not yet at my level. And you know what causes both that inferiority and superiority complex? Fear, insecurity, or as James calls it, the battles within. Sometimes we over-present confidence, the superiority. Sometimes we undersell ourselves, inferiority. But it's fear. Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:36:23]:
Wow.
Dena Davidson [00:36:24]:
We skipped right over this word. He calls them saints. He calls us saints to equip the saints. So I mean, the superiority complex, you're like, oh yeah, that's definitely me. But if you struggle with that, that's not me. You know, they're not— Kurt's not asking for me to help with that. Josh is not asking for me to help with that. Please embrace your identity that you are, according to God, a saint, not on the basis of anything that you have done, but on the basis of how he chooses to see you.
Dena Davidson [00:36:55]:
Like, that's the gospel. You are a saint, and all saints are meant to be equipped for their works of service.
Curt Harlow [00:37:02]:
I just glanced at the clock, and we are 7 minutes over time.
Dena Davidson [00:37:06]:
That's what happens when Brie's not in the room.
Curt Harlow [00:37:07]:
Thousands of people are leaving this podcast right now because they leave right at 29 minutes. Okay, let me ask you this. Um, how would you apply this passage? Give me a very practical application.
Dena Davidson [00:37:22]:
To ask God, what is my part? What is my part? And if you hear no clear answers, say yes to the first thing your church asks you to do.
Curt Harlow [00:37:31]:
That's your part. Boom. I love it. I'll ask a different question, even though that's probably the best one. You were gonna say better. Better question. No, I'm gonna ask, what is your source? So it says here, Christ is the head. The Greek word there is source, like the head.
Curt Harlow [00:37:49]:
Of a river. And I think the fundamental problem that causes the immaturity and the disunity, and exactly as you so aptly described about the stronghold, the fundamental problem behind all of this is the wrong source. And by source, I mean, what do you depend on the most? What without it, could you not function? Right. And it is easy for all of us to find sources in other things— jobs, spouses— but this passage exists to recall us to making Christ the head. Amen. Amen. Good. All right.
Curt Harlow [00:38:35]:
Well, thanks for joining us. Next week, we're going to have on— I don't know, because Brie has gone on vacation. Bree, we got, we got, uh, Tyler over there. How you doing, T-Meister? Doing good. He's no Bree, I gotta tell you. He's no Bree. Hey, sorry. He keeps the podcast rolling.
Curt Harlow [00:38:53]:
You don't know who's on next week, do you, Mr.
Dena Davidson [00:38:55]:
Anis? He's looking at the calendar.
Curt Harlow [00:38:56]:
It's Cameron Wells. Look at him. I take it all back. He's wonderful. You're at the Bree level of podcast engineering. So Cameron Wells, uh, our incredible communicating pastor at our Adventure Campus, going to join us. Always wonderful. He's the Holy Ghost Viking, uh, the redheaded one, if you don't— but don't miss him.
Curt Harlow [00:39:15]:
And as always, thank you for giving us some time. Remember, tell someone about the podcast.