Dena Davidson [00:00:00]:
Welcome back to the Bible study podcast. I'm so excited because it is Thrive conference week, which means, like, the whole world has descended upon Bayside, and we get to sit down with some of our very favorite pastors. I am new to meeting you. Silas. Did I say it right? Okay. I have, like, deep, like, fear that I'm gonna say I don't care, but zealous. You are a pastor in Germany. Tell us a little bit about your church.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:00:23]:
Yes. So our church is called Amen Berlin, which would be aim in Berlin. You probably figured that. And we planted four and a half years ago, so moved. Moved with our family to Berlin and some other people that joined. And it's awesome. We're in the east of Berlin, so for the history people, they'll know, like, some of the stuff that's going on. The wall is not still up, so just for the people wondering.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:00:50]:
But it's amazing what we get to see, and we're very grateful to be here.
Dena Davidson [00:00:56]:
I love that. Okay, so probably pretty easy to pastor where you pastor.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:00:59]:
Well, yes. I don't. To be fair, I don't think it's easy to pastor anywhere in the world. Right. Because it's always people. And I'm not easy. Yeah, you. I mean, you seem to be easy, but you probably have your days where you.
Dena Davidson [00:01:14]:
No one knows me. Thinks I'm easy.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:01:16]:
Yeah. So, I mean, that's the thing. Like, yeah, people, whether you're in Berlin, Germany, or like, in the Ukraine and Africa and Asia, in America, like, in the end, we're all people and we're messy, which is why we need Jesus. Right?
Dena Davidson [00:01:32]:
Yes.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:01:32]:
Why we're here.
Dena Davidson [00:01:33]:
So I love it. So good. Okay, well, we're gonna dive straight into our passage. We'll try to save a little bit of time because I am always fascinated to hear. Just. All right, there's this, you know, way that we view the Bible and Christianity, and we can get so stuck in just the way that we do it. But I'd love to hear, since you're coming from outside of the American culture, just any thoughts you have that we should hear. So we will get to that.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:01:57]:
Yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:01:57]:
But first, love that this is the Bible study podcast.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:02:00]:
Yeah. So you go. I love.
Dena Davidson [00:02:01]:
We are going to dive into the text.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:02:03]:
So good.
Dena Davidson [00:02:03]:
All of Bayside is studying the book of John right now. So we're going through the first half this year. And today we got get to talk about a very important passage. This is Jesus clearing the temple courts.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:02:15]:
Go.
Dena Davidson [00:02:15]:
So if you've heard the previous, this is Amazing. The previous podcast, it's all about Jesus turning the water into a wine. And this is quintessential like, yeah, Jesus, we love you.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:02:27]:
We love the wine.
Dena Davidson [00:02:27]:
God, the one guy that's. And then the very next chapter, almost like John knew we were just, hey, getting too excited. There's different dimensions of Jesus, right? He takes us straight into the temple courts. So one context note is some people, they read Matthew, Mark, and Luke and they're like, oh, this scene is in a different part of the story. And so obviously, it's part of our job to figure out, okay, is this the same. Same story, or is this that Jesus actually two times in his ministry, public ministry, goes and clears the temple courts. And I personally think best of scholarship is that we're witnessing two scenes, one at the beginning of Jesus's ministry and then one closer to the end of Jesus's ministry. So John wants us to hear this passage right here in its context.
Dena Davidson [00:03:15]:
It's after he turns water into wine, and then we're going to read what happens next. Picking up verse 13. When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem in the temple courts. He found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords and drove all, all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle. He scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves, he said, get these out of here. Stop turning my father's house into a market.
Dena Davidson [00:03:51]:
His disciples remembered that it is written, zeal for your house will consume me. The Jews then responded to him, what sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this? Jesus answered them, destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days. They replied, it has taken 46 years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days. But the temple he had spoken of was his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken. Now, while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name. But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people.
Dena Davidson [00:04:36]:
He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person. All right, Pastor Silas, you're. You're opening up your back hours do we have. We have 25 minutes now, but I wish we had hours because it is deserving, right?
Silas Wallmeroth [00:04:54]:
It's crazy. It's awesome.
Dena Davidson [00:04:55]:
What jumps out at you from this passage?
Silas Wallmeroth [00:04:58]:
Oh, I mean, looking at a passage like that, I think it's. It always depends a little bit what head you have on. Right. So. And I think that, to me, it helps sometimes because as a pastor and as a leader, I need to make sure that I take my. Oh, I could make a sermon out of this head off and go, oh, Jesus, like, what is. What is your word actually trying to teach me personally?
Dena Davidson [00:05:27]:
Yes.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:05:28]:
Which to those listening in ministry can be quite hard. And. But I think that same approach just going, like, first of all, because I know obviously it's a Bible study podcast, so we can look at context and we, like, what is, like, the temple and everything is awesome. Yes. But, like, I would say first and foremost, when I look. I try when I look at a. At a passage just to go, okay, God, like, what did you want to say first to the people there?
Dena Davidson [00:05:57]:
Exactly.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:05:58]:
Because that's, like, we read it and we always think it's just for us, but obviously this happened. This actually happened. Right, Right. So, like, what did Jesus want to say and convey and make clear for the people that were looking? Like, how awesome would that be? Like, just standing there and you see Jesus just, like, making the whip, and
Dena Davidson [00:06:19]:
you're like, what's going on?
Silas Wallmeroth [00:06:21]:
What's going on over there? Do you know what I mean? Like, that, to me is interesting. So. And then, anyway, so that, to me, probably the thing that's stood out to me the most, just when you read it, is the. The making a whip part, simply because it shows that Jesus is very intentional. So when I'm with my kids and they annoy me and I, like, lash out. Not that it ever happened, because obviously the Holy Spirit lives inside of me and the peace of God and all that. But let's say I did lash out and one of my kids and go, that's not what Jesus is doing here.
Dena Davidson [00:06:59]:
Yes.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:07:00]:
Jesus is not, like, just reacting, but it's actually very intentional of what he's doing here. And that, to me, is probably the things that stands out first.
Dena Davidson [00:07:13]:
Wow. I feel like that's a very easily missed point. Right. So it's like, you think it goes straight from the observance of evil into that reacting to the evil. But in between, there is this. This little part about he made a whip. So it takes a little bit of time. He had to gather the materials, he had to put them together, and people probably are watching and they had a little bit of warning and watching.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:07:39]:
That looks like a whip right here.
Dena Davidson [00:07:42]:
Yes, exactly. He's about to sell that whip or. Yes. So I don't think I've ever thought about that. That's really helpful.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:07:48]:
Yeah. I think. And that, to me, is like, what makes the Bible very interesting. Right. Because you. When you think of it as, like, all scriptures, God breathed. Right. So it's.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:08:00]:
God. Like, John didn't just write this and go, oh, I need a filler here.
Dena Davidson [00:08:05]:
Right.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:08:05]:
Like, I need more. I need more, like, pages in my book.
Dena Davidson [00:08:08]:
Yes.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:08:09]:
It's just. It's very intentional that that's what's happening here. And I think it shows the heart of God. God is not just. And I think that sometimes. I'm going into application already. Sorry. But sometimes that's.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:08:23]:
We. We view God. Maybe depending on how we grew up, we. We would never see. Either we would never, on one extreme, never think about God actually driving things out forcefully, or we have experienced and seen and grown up in a context where we feel like it's a bit random and reactive to whatever I'm doing that day.
Dena Davidson [00:08:49]:
Yes.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:08:50]:
But then when we look at this, we see that the truth is somewhere in the middle, where God actually does care.
Dena Davidson [00:08:59]:
Yeah.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:08:59]:
About the stuff that's not right. That's really good in his church, in the temple, but also in us.
Dena Davidson [00:09:05]:
Yeah.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:09:06]:
Which is maybe another application, but which is like, we're called the temple now. Right. Like, now our body is the temple. So that, to me, is very interesting to understand. That's why I think that this stands out to me personally, because I'm like, who do I believe God is?
Dena Davidson [00:09:26]:
Yes.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:09:27]:
Which we can talk about theology all day long, but really, in the end, who we think God is will always affect how we read Scripture, will always affect how we approach God. And this shows us something about the character of God, I think, in a beautiful way.
Dena Davidson [00:09:47]:
Yes.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:09:48]:
Yeah. Anyway, so.
Dena Davidson [00:09:49]:
And I think that that speaks to. I'm thinking about the Old Testament while you're talking about this. I'm thinking about the Old Testament, where God tells the Israelites to go conquer Canaan and to destroy the Canaanites. And if you haven't been steeped in the rest of the story, you're like, whoa, God's mad and he's going on tyrant. But you can read a few parts where he actually sends Abraham and he sends his people into there. And he says, I'm gonna drive these people out, but not yet, because the full measure of their sin has not come. So when God reveals his character, he says that he is slow to wrath, abounding in love, and Generosity, showing kindness to the children's children. And, and I think that that is part of what you're saying.
Dena Davidson [00:10:36]:
This is the same nature of the God of the Old Testament being displayed through Jesus, where we don't just see a rageful reaction. It is intentional and it is just. Which is probably another important part of this. If you don't know the kind of the Old Testament as well as New Testament historical context, you might be like, why is he so mad at this? Right? And what is this about? So for the Jewish people, the temple, the temple was where they went to meet with God, which Old Testament context, God keeps resisting the people's desire to come to a particular place, right? He keeps trying to say, like, I walk with you in the garden, right? Like my presence goes with you, right? He. He keeps moving Abraham on from place to place. He keeps moving the Jewish people out of there into. Into Egypt. He keeps moving his people.
Dena Davidson [00:11:33]:
And he wants them to know, even when he. They leave Egypt, cloud goes above them or in front of them. And he wants them to know, like, where you are, I am with you, right? Like God. God invades the world. There is no place you can go to hide from the presence of God. As the psalmist would understand later, all of creation declares the glory of God, but the people. There's this human inclination to root God in a place. And.
Dena Davidson [00:12:01]:
And so God understanding and loving his people. You know, David begs him, can I build a temple for you? And God says, no, right, you can't build a temple for me, but I'll let your son Solomon build a temple. And so Solomon builds this temple and he. He gets all of these instructions and it's this beautiful image to help people understand the holiness of God, but that God actually does come to dwell with his people and to absolve them of sin certain days of the year. And it's. It's very beautiful and ritualistic for the Jewish people. They saw their temple destroyed and then they got permission to rebuild it. And over and over again in the historical context, we see the Jewish people having to survive, conquerors coming in, looting their temples, desecrating it, and kind of rebuilding it according to their ideas.
Dena Davidson [00:12:49]:
So now what we've got, we've got the rebuilt temple. This is now Herod's temple, and Jesus is going into it and he is finding there, there's more of humanity than there is of a worshipful presence of God, right?
Silas Wallmeroth [00:13:05]:
So he sounds like today to me.
Dena Davidson [00:13:08]:
Amen. Yes, 100%. He's like, this is where my people are Thinking they can go to meet with God. But when they go into this temple, they're getting more of humanity cheating each other, selling to each other, trying to profit from each other. Then they are worshiping and getting to experience God.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:13:26]:
Yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:13:26]:
And so his. His spirit responds to this. It says, zeal for your house will consume me. Because the heart of God is he wants people to understand that God wants to dwell with his people. Right. We see all. We're talking, lots of Bible. Kurt's going to be like, stick to one passage, Gina.
Dena Davidson [00:13:43]:
But we speak. We speak all the way. We see, all the way to revelation. And we see that there's no temple. It says that specifically in heaven there is new heaven, new earth, no temple. Why? Because the dwelling of God is once again with man and Jesus himself is the mediator. So what Jesus is doing here is he is skipping down to the part where he says, destroy this temple and I will rebuild it. Most natural thing in the world.
Dena Davidson [00:14:13]:
Right. Silas would have been for them to be like, what do you mean you're going to destroy this temple? Like, we worked really hard to rebuild it, you know, years. And this is such a big part of our story. And you're going to rebuild it in three days. But what, what's the deeper spiritual meaning that Jesus was getting at?
Silas Wallmeroth [00:14:31]:
Yeah, I mean, in it. I mean, you don't need to be a scholar to find that out, I reckon, because Jesus. It says here, right?
Dena Davidson [00:14:38]:
Yes. The Bible answers.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:14:40]:
The Bible answers the question, which is great. Better than TikTok. So we. So he actually. It says he meant his own body. So that's what he's getting at. Like, he's actually getting at the fact that. No, I will, like the biggest.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:14:57]:
Because they. They ask for a miracle, right? So it says, what are you doing? If God gave you authority, show us a miraculous sign to prove it. And Jesus actually doesn't answer with a miraculous sign sign. He answers with the miracle, which is himself.
Dena Davidson [00:15:18]:
Yes.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:15:19]:
Being crucified, dying for us.
Dena Davidson [00:15:22]:
Yes.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:15:23]:
Making the way for everybody, like, instead of so all the mess. So he's. He's addressing him. Jesus is addressing mess and sinfulness in this situation, and he gives the answer to it. Which is interesting because you could look at this scripture and going, I see. You need to get rid of the stuff in your life now let's pause there. Who's actually getting rid of the stuff?
Dena Davidson [00:15:52]:
Right.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:15:52]:
Jesus is. He is driving it out. So when we read this and go, oh, I need to now get rid of all the stuff. Obviously it's Great. Like, you know, sanctification. Go for it. Like, we all need that. But I don't think that's the point.
Dena Davidson [00:16:12]:
Right.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:16:12]:
The point is Jesus is the one cleansing us.
Dena Davidson [00:16:16]:
Yes.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:16:17]:
Jesus is the answer. He is the miracle answer to all the problems humanity is facing. And that is just in, like, one sentence. He meant his own body.
Dena Davidson [00:16:30]:
He meant his own body.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:16:31]:
That's awesome.
Dena Davidson [00:16:31]:
Hey. Yes.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:16:32]:
I mean, that's it again, that's awesome.
Dena Davidson [00:16:35]:
Do you need a better sign? Right? Like, kill me, I'll rise from the dead. I think that'll prove it.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:16:41]:
Yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:16:41]:
Right. I love how you say this is giving a little into application, but it's so good. We gotta go there.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:16:47]:
I'm not a theologian.
Dena Davidson [00:16:48]:
You're a pastor. I'm a pastor.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:16:50]:
I'm sorry. All the theologians, they'll be like, he did that wrong. He did that wrong. I'm doing, like, yes.
Dena Davidson [00:16:55]:
But everyone listening is like, thank you. Because it is a danger that we read this story and we think the wrongful conclusion is God is going to be mad at me if I am not completely clean.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:17:09]:
Yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:17:10]:
And it's like, well, that's not what it's saying. So I don't have to, like, go into a corner and get my life in order. Right. Romans tells us, while we were still sinners, Christ died for our sins. So you're right. We don't have to whip up our own zeal to get holy. That I think the gospel proves that's not really within our power. Right.
Dena Davidson [00:17:30]:
We have all sinned, fallen short of the glory of God. That's why we need Jesus to come take possession of us and to drive out the badness, the sin, the disordered desires, like, all of that. It is a work that Jesus cares to do in us if we will grant him access and say, yeah, come do it.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:17:49]:
I love this. We can do this every week. Like, I love it.
Dena Davidson [00:17:51]:
Let's do it. I'll call you. I know you're pastoring a whole church in there, but let's talk about the back. So fun. I. I think there's just one more point I want to make, and then we can hop over into. Hop over into application. But I.
Dena Davidson [00:18:06]:
I think it's important that we talk about what it means that Jesus saw himself as the temple. Because the. The clear question in all of the gospels is, who is Jesus?
Silas Wallmeroth [00:18:21]:
Yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:18:21]:
And the one that should be able to answer that question is Jesus. Right. So John and the gospel writers are always pointing to the crowd's reaction. The. The Pharisees, the sadducees they're letting us into the story to understand even the disciples reaction to Jesus. But ultimately what should set zealous understanding and Dina's understanding of who Jesus is is Jesus's own self understanding.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:18:48]:
So good.
Dena Davidson [00:18:49]:
And it's clear here, he, he said that he's the temple. Destroy this temple. His disciples later understood he meant his own body. Right. This charge is actually going to come up in his crucifixion, his, his trial before his crucifixion. They're going to be like, hey, this guy said that he was going to destroy this temple. And actually in the Roman Empire to desecrate a temple would be a capital offense. It's one of the reasons it gets brought up later.
Dena Davidson [00:19:15]:
But it was a complete misunderstanding of what Jesus was saying because there, there would be people desecrating a temple that day. Um, but they didn't really understand that the capital offense was not going to be against him. They were committing the capital offense when they crucified the Lord of glory, like God himself. So if a temple was a place where people understood I can go to this physical place to meet with God, part of what Jesus is expressing here is I am the place that you can come to meet God. Yeah, Like I, I am where God dwells. Jesus understood himself to be God. Greater than the temple, greater than the Holy Land, greater than any sacrament, greater than any sign. Like greater than all of the things that they were looking for and clinging to.
Dena Davidson [00:20:08]:
They had God himself in the flesh. And I just, I, I sometimes marvel that, that we can read the Gospels and understand Jesus's self understanding and, and still have this question of like, did Jesus really claim to be God?
Silas Wallmeroth [00:20:26]:
Yeah, yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:20:26]:
Like where did he say I am God? Actually it does say that. He does say that several times. But like over and over again would be my answer. Like every time Jesus opens his mouth, he's either declaring his humanity or his divinity over and over again. Humanity, divinity, humanity, divinity. So I think that's actually a good biblical principle is when you're going through the Bible and you see Jesus saying something about himself, asking yourself the question, is Jesus making a claim about his humanity? Is he making a claim about his divinity? Knowing that those are two of the things that Jesus is always trying to help people understand.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:21:03]:
So good. Yeah, he's 100 God and 100% man.
Dena Davidson [00:21:07]:
Yes.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:21:08]:
While he's on earth. So yeah, I mean to that point of. And that's sometimes what we do in culture. Right. We go, oh, you know, Jesus was a great teacher or you know, he's like a great philosopher or, you know, a great rabbi. But really, when you, when you study Jesus, there's either he is who he says he is, which is God.
Dena Davidson [00:21:31]:
Yes.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:21:32]:
Or he's crazy.
Dena Davidson [00:21:33]:
Yeah.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:21:34]:
Jesus doesn't leave any room for, like, well, you know, he might be a great man. Like, literally. I mean, funny story. I'll try to shorten it. We literally had this, like, someone came up and this is like, welcome to Berlin. Someone came up to me after the service. And first it was a great chat, very charismatic guy. And then step by step, like, something is off here.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:21:54]:
Like, something is really off. And then he suddenly, I could hear phrases that pointed to him being the Messiah.
Dena Davidson [00:22:03]:
Oh, dear.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:22:04]:
I'm like, wait a minute, where did we take that turn? So he, and so I asked him point blank, I said, so do you think you are the Messiah and Jesus is not? And he looked me straight in the eye, said, that's what I'm saying. So, like, do you know what I mean? Like, you're laughing. I was, I literally burst out laughing and I'm like, I had no, like, no seminary, like, prepared me for that moment. But literally, like, if that same person.
Dena Davidson [00:22:31]:
Yes.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:22:31]:
Like, you wouldn't go, oh, he's a great teacher. Like, yeah, he's not, you know, he's nuts. Like. And I literally. That's the first time in our young church plan that I asked someone never to come back. I'm like, well, dude, you know what? See you later, alligator. So I'm like, so that you can't say I'm the Messiah, you can't say I'm the temple, like, and then just say, oh, he's a great teacher. Like, he's either totally off crazy or he is who he says he is.
Dena Davidson [00:22:59]:
Yes.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:23:00]:
Anyways, I just, I, I, I thought it was funny in that moment, to be honest.
Dena Davidson [00:23:03]:
No, that, that is literally insane.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:23:06]:
Yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:23:08]:
It's like, thanks for coming.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:23:11]:
Yeah, exactly.
Dena Davidson [00:23:13]:
Later. But I think it's so helpful for us to think, okay, so that's how we would react today.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:23:19]:
Yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:23:19]:
Two thousand years ago, it actually wasn't so different.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:23:22]:
Yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:23:23]:
When they were hearing people say, say this, like, they literally just couldn't grasp what Jesus was saying. Even his own disciples were like, that was a weird one. It's gonna, we're gonna keep kind of following this guy. We're not really sure where it's going. And we make fun of the disciples. Right. Like, they were such problems, but honestly, they were such problems, but I don't think we would have had different responses. Right.
Dena Davidson [00:23:45]:
Like totally pre seeing Jesus die and rise again, we would have had the same question.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:23:51]:
Oh yes. And we always have the struggle reading the Bible that we like, at least most of us. I don't know your audience that well, so if you're listening and you don't know Jesus yet, let's talk. But we always have the problem that we read any passage knowing the end of the book.
Dena Davidson [00:24:10]:
Yes.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:24:11]:
Do you know what I mean? But even like, imagine the disciples in this situation, they're like, shoot, what's going on? Like our rabbi is just like making a whip. I'm like, I'm like unfollow. So yes, that I think. But we are like, oh yeah, of course it's, it's pointing to the cross. That's not what the disciples thought. They're like, this is weird. This is really off.
Dena Davidson [00:24:33]:
We thought you're going to take on Rome Jewish authorities.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:24:35]:
Exactly. So anyways, my 4 year old, when
Dena Davidson [00:24:39]:
we're reading the Bible, he always goes spoiler alert. Because you know that children's Bibles are always hinting at the death or resurrection. Spoiler, spoiler alert. I love it.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:24:48]:
That was awesome.
Dena Davidson [00:24:49]:
So fun. Okay, so all right. Two application. We held you back so long.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:24:54]:
Thank you. Finally. That's what I'm here for.
Dena Davidson [00:24:57]:
But it is what ultimately, if we read the Bible, but we just are like, that's very interesting that Jesus claimed to be God and then we have nothing to apply it to our life. We're not doing the full job of Bible study.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:25:08]:
There you go.
Dena Davidson [00:25:09]:
So if there was one simple way you would encourage someone to apply this passage this week.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:25:13]:
Week.
Dena Davidson [00:25:14]:
What would it be?
Silas Wallmeroth [00:25:14]:
Yeah, I mean, we hinted at it before. I think the most important application from this passage is that Jesus is the one taking care of the stuff in us that is blocking us from God.
Dena Davidson [00:25:30]:
Yes.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:25:31]:
It's his work, not our work. Yeah, that's the. And that can seem theoretical, but like, let's just go to like a Tuesday evening. When things happened that day, you reacted in a certain way. Or maybe you're listening to this and you don't feel close to God. So like, is it you now doing a lot of things, doing a bunch of things in order to get God's approval again or get right with God again or is it us going, jesus, I need you clear out the things in my life that need cleaning. Similar to like what David was saying. Like sometimes I can quote verses in English, sometimes I quote them in German.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:26:21]:
So that wouldn't help right now. So. Right. So it's like,
Dena Davidson [00:26:26]:
search my heart.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:26:27]:
Search my heart. There you go.
Dena Davidson [00:26:28]:
I got it. Yes. Love it.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:26:30]:
Search my heart. Like God. Just look, please, Jesus, I need your cleansing. So that, to me, is probably like, the most obvious one. The other. Can I do another one?
Dena Davidson [00:26:42]:
Of course.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:26:43]:
Okay, so the other. There are several ones. But maybe the other thing is, like, as a pastor and I see this sometimes in culture where. Because the church doesn't always do things. Right. Right. I mean, there's leaders who do stupid stuff. We all do stupid stuff.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:27:04]:
And there's this narrative sometimes that, oh, you know, me and God. That's great. Me and the Bible, studying the Bible. I'm listening to this Bible study podcast because, you know, me and God, I really want to go deep, which is great.
Dena Davidson [00:27:20]:
Wonderful American Indian.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:27:21]:
Go for it. Go for it. But actually, we see what we see here. What Jesus is passionate about is the temple, is the church. God loves this church. And obviously, you know, you could say, oh, well, you're a pastor, obviously, you know, that's. You have to say that. But truly, like, you are not designed to follow Jesus alone.
Dena Davidson [00:27:49]:
Yeah. Amen.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:27:51]:
You're not. TikTok's trying to tell you otherwise, but you're not. You're actually called to be part of a local church. Even, like, if I can say that, like, I know you pro. We probably have, like, online communities, and sometimes, you know, you can't get to a local church, that's fine. But if there's any way to get to a local place where you can hug someone, where someone sees, looks you in the eye and goes, it looks like you're not feeling too. I cannot pray for you like God has. I.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:28:25]:
I think that's what's important. Like, I need church.
Dena Davidson [00:28:30]:
Yes.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:28:30]:
Like, I'm the pastor of the church, but it's still my church.
Dena Davidson [00:28:33]:
Yeah.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:28:34]:
Like, we need each other. And I love that. He is. The passion for God's house will consume him. I wish more Christians would say that.
Dena Davidson [00:28:46]:
Wow.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:28:47]:
I wish more of us would say, oh, man, the passion for his house consumes me.
Dena Davidson [00:28:55]:
Yeah.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:28:56]:
Because what I see is a trend to go. The passion for studying the Bible deeply. The passion for, you know, building ministries, the passion for whatever it is. It's all great stuff. But if we say we are follow of Jesus, we should be passionate about what he's passionate about. And it's really hard to switch on passion. But what we can do is we can pray for it. So, like, if you're listening to this and you're like, well, you know, I'm hurt.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:29:31]:
And by church and all that, which I'm so sorry that you are. I truly am. It's still not good for you to be alone. Like, let's do this together. Let's do the work. Let's heal, and let's come together and pray. Let's be on our knees to pray for passion for God's house. Yes, a passion for his church.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:29:57]:
Anyways, that would be another application.
Dena Davidson [00:30:00]:
I love it. I think Pastor Kevin Thompson's coming on the podcast next week, so tune in.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:30:06]:
Let's go, Kevin.
Dena Davidson [00:30:08]:
I think. I think I'm. I think he's the one who told me this quote. But essentially, like, what happens in community is healed in community. So if you.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:30:16]:
That's so good.
Dena Davidson [00:30:17]:
If you have been hurt by a church, 0% negating that, you can read the Bible that's all over God's story. Sinful people sin against each other, and the church is nothing more than a collection of sinful people who have a savior period. So what happened in a church community will eventually, like, God's plan is to heal that within the context of a group of people who love Jesus and who follow Jesus. So if you can find it in yourself to go say to God, God, would you take me to a safe church? You take me to a place where you're going to put loving individuals who can help heal this wound that was caused by my previous church. I believe that God will guide you there, and that is our prayer for you. I don't have any different applications. I'm just gonna put my exclamation point on those. But I do have one question.
Dena Davidson [00:31:19]:
I think we would be so amiss if we didn't just have an opportunity to ask you. We're so zoned into our American church context. It's all we know, right? Because it's. That's all we have grown up in for many of us. So help us understand. If you could say anything to the American church and Christians go attending and part of the American church, what would it be?
Silas Wallmeroth [00:31:44]:
That's a big question. Obviously, I'd say, see, I'm here, right? I love the American church. I sometimes feel way more at home in America. Just my personality. I'm loud. My wife's always like, what? Calm down. So I love it here. Like, seriously, I love what God is doing here.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:32:04]:
I love what God is doing at Bayside. I. I'm not at all against, like, mega churches. I think mega churches are mega. I mean, awesome. Many people following Jesus. Let's go.
Dena Davidson [00:32:13]:
Yes.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:32:14]:
I. I just think sometimes and we all do this. We. We focus on what we know and we think that's. Sometimes we can lean towards thinking that's the only reality there is. So like, let's. Let's take Berlin. Our church we planted four and a half years ago, and we're about like 5, 600 people, which is amazing.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:32:39]:
Like, in our context, we're a mega church. When you look at the numbers.
Dena Davidson [00:32:44]:
Yeah.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:32:44]:
When. So there's about 4 million people in Berlin, and we are like the third or fourth largest church in Berlin. Wow. So in all of Germany, like 80, whatever million people. The. The largest church is probably like 2, 000 people. So I come here and I'm like, there's literally like thousands of people in church, like every intersection. Do you know what I mean? Like, and then.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:33:16]:
Which is awesome.
Dena Davidson [00:33:18]:
Yeah.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:33:19]:
But I think to understand, like, oh, it's not like, it's very different. Like, we just looked at some bonus studies and like, stats and it's like, oh, well, you know, only 24% of. Of Americans really, like. And I mean, in Berlin, that's like less than 1%.
Dena Davidson [00:33:33]:
Wow.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:33:34]:
So we literally meet people in their 30s and they say, you know what? We've. Before meeting you, we've never in our whole life met anyone that actually believes in God.
Dena Davidson [00:33:46]:
What.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:33:46]:
Do you know what I mean? Like, yes. So. And I think that just to. I'm just sharing this because I think it helps us to a appreciate what we have rather than bash the situation of the church in America, which I think, you know, there's lots of things to talk about here. I'm the last person to go political, obviously, because I have no idea. But I just think to be like, what? Like, we just went to a cafe around this area and there were literally like two groups of people like, studying the Bible together in a cafe. Like, unless it's like the cafe that's like very closely related to our church, you would never see that. And I think if we started to be as the American church, as we started to be more thankful for what we have.
Dena Davidson [00:34:37]:
Yes.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:34:38]:
And then maybe also just go, God, you know, give us a heart for the capital C Church. And what I'm talking about is not even like the church in Africa, Asia, wherever it's. Which there's like massive incredible things going on, but it's just to have a bigger horizon. Like when we read even like, we're on a Bible study podcast. Right. When we read the Bible, like, you can correct me on this, but most of the people that we read about, they're not white. Right.
Dena Davidson [00:35:07]:
So what?
Silas Wallmeroth [00:35:09]:
So. But we sometimes make it, like, that's what church and Christianity is like, if we're honest. And that's me being very white and privileged saying that. So I think for us to understand there's a much bigger world out there.
Dena Davidson [00:35:25]:
That's good.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:35:26]:
The church is a lot more diverse.
Dena Davidson [00:35:28]:
Yes.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:35:29]:
Than, like, one fast song and two slow songs and. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's ridiculous. Let's be honest. It's awesome. I love it. Let's go for it. Praise Jesus. But that's not the church.
Dena Davidson [00:35:41]:
Yes. Anyways, I just had my kitchen cabinets repainted.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:35:46]:
Oh. I'm interested in that. I'm like, what?
Dena Davidson [00:35:49]:
Where are we going with this?
Silas Wallmeroth [00:35:50]:
I love this. I'm married too, so let's go.
Dena Davidson [00:35:52]:
I am queen of transitions.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:35:54]:
I hear you.
Dena Davidson [00:35:55]:
Our college students are always like, what? Like, record scratch. It does. Yeah. Doesn't translate. It's gonna get there.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:36:00]:
Okay. I'm sure it does. I'm sure.
Dena Davidson [00:36:02]:
This is literally. It's fresh on my mind. Like, literally finished in sneer quotes. Because there was so much cleanup to do from the crew anyways. So part, like, what really stuck out to me in that exhortation, which was very powerful. Thank you. And I think it would probably be easy for people to be like, yeah, Pastor Kurt should definitely hear that. But I think it's a word for all of us believers in the church, because we're all called to be part God's church and to love and lead her well.
Dena Davidson [00:36:30]:
So I. I think of it kind of like, all right, there was a moment when I moved into my house where I was like, I can't believe I owned a home. Right. Like, I can't believe I have this house to raise children in to. To. To be safe at night, to not to not worry about. Like, this is incredible. Like, what an opportunity.
Dena Davidson [00:36:51]:
There came a moment where I was so comfortable living in that house that I started to really zone in on what I wanted to change.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:36:59]:
Yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:37:00]:
So I was like, those dang kitchen cabinets. They're.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:37:03]:
I see where you go. I love this.
Dena Davidson [00:37:06]:
So I was like, you. Like, who lives here? Like, I cannot be associated with these kitchen cabinets. Right. Like, anyone visited, they'd be like, you are so backwards. And I just think it's so true that sometimes, growing up in the American church, I'm just like, of course other people read the Bible, and I can get so obsessed about what is not going well about Bayside or even about the other church up the street. They do it differently than we do. And I can kind of be in that coffee shop and being like, oh, that's great to have their Bible out. And then I'm overhearing them, oh, they're from that other church.
Dena Davidson [00:37:40]:
You know, sneer like, oh, that's a terrible church. And, and to have a spirit of criticism, honestly, instead of gratitude. And I think that God is always very aware, as this passage shows us, of what needs to change in his church. Right. But he is intentional. He is slow to wrath. He will make changes at the right moment and correct people at the right moment. We're called to bring gratitude.
Dena Davidson [00:38:08]:
And I think that God can do a lot more with our hearts and minds obsessed with. With what is going right and entrusting to him, like God, bring the correction. Use us if you want to, to bring that correction. But I'm going to fill my mind and my spirit with praising you for what is going right in your church. I love that word. And then just a thought there.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:38:31]:
We would all love to be Jesus with the whip.
Dena Davidson [00:38:33]:
100.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:38:34]:
Do you know what I mean? Like, I would love to just go. But that's his job, actually.
Dena Davidson [00:38:38]:
Oh, someone's taken to TikTok right now and they're like, I'm going to bring my whip.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:38:43]:
Exactly.
Dena Davidson [00:38:44]:
That's not. That's not the point here. It's like, do that in your own heart and life. And. And then if you are part of a church, I think there is a measure of saying, like, hey, is there something God is calling us to correct? Yeah, for sure. Oh, 100 but it's under his leadership, not around.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:38:59]:
So good.
Dena Davidson [00:39:00]:
Well, thank you so much for being here.
Silas Wallmeroth [00:39:02]:
This is fun.
Dena Davidson [00:39:02]:
I'm so. I'm gonna get you back across the street to the Thrive Conference. But thank you so much. Yeah, thank you so much for joining us. And we'll be continuing in the Book of John with Pastor Kevin Thompson next week.