Dena Davidson [00:00:00]:
Hey. This is the Bible study pod, and we are joined by two incredible guests. Normally we would have Pastor Curt on here, but he is sneaking in some extra vacation right before all the craziness of fall hits. So. Sorry that you couldn't sneak in. Was that an option? He's gone. Gotta be here. So we have had Pastor Kevin on before, but go ahead and introduce yourself and your role here at Bayside.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:22]:
Yeah. Kevin Thompson. So I'm one of the teaching pastors and I do married life primarily at Granite Bay.
Dena Davidson [00:00:26]:
Love it. And for the first time on the Bible study pod, we've got yet another Jason.
Jason Dixon [00:00:31]:
It's. Yeah, it's a real problem. And from Georgia, unfortunately. But yeah. Jason Dixon, chief of staff helping with Blue Oaks and Adventure right now.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:40]:
I love that chief of staff. Seriously, it sounds like he knows nothing about the Bible is what that means.
Jason Dixon [00:00:45]:
The chief of staff of who wrote Scripture. Yes.
Dena Davidson [00:00:48]:
Excellent. Well, Jason, we actually know from you being in sermon prep how much you love God's word and how much you bring to the table. So excited for this conversation. We are continuing along in Ephesians, so I'm going to read our passage 4, 1, 16. So listen along and we will dive into God's word and break it down. Chapter four. As a prisoner for the Lord, then I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle.
Dena Davidson [00:01:18]:
Be patient bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us, grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says when he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men. What does he ascended mean, except that he also descended to the lower earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens in order to fill the whole universe. It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers to prepare God's people for works of service so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants tossed back and forth by the waves and blown here and There by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming, instead speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the head, that is Christ.
Dena Davidson [00:02:35]:
From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love as each part does its work. This is an incredible passage. Honestly, it is top five for me in all of scripture. I love this verse. I have a huge passion for just the church in general, a huge call to it. So just let's start popcorning some first thoughts about this passage. What do you got, Kevin? Teach us to read this as Paul intended it to be read, but more importantly, as God intends us to be reading it today.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:11]:
Yeah, I wonder if verse one is almost like the headline. So this is what we're supposed to do. So live a life worthy of the calling. And then the rest of it is how we actually go about that. But I think what's so intriguing there is if I were to be writing this, I would be writing this of, here's what you need to do to earn the calling of God upon your life. So if you do these things, maybe you can work your way up in the same way that as we work in our careers, we're earning and achieving kind of things. So just the word received there is such a fascinating concept that it does have an impact on the lives that we live, but it's in response to what God's already done for us, which obviously we've seen in the first three chapters of Ephesians and specifically coming out of that prayer at the end of chapter three. So the very first verse is what kind of strikes me.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:56]:
How about you?
Jason Dixon [00:03:56]:
Yeah, that's amazing. Even after that. So you have that calling that you received, and immediately Paul says, so now that you have that calling that you've received, I need you to be completely humble and gentle, which if we've ever wanted to, you know, say, hey, you know, I'm kind of. No. Completely humble and gentle. So I love how no one, no one's there yet, so you got some work to do. And so that's why I love that that's exactly what Paul hit after that. And then it comes straight into.
Jason Dixon [00:04:27]:
And we're doing that and we're bearing with one another, we're being patient with one another. So everything is this one anotherness when it comes to your call in the body of Christ.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:36]:
So Dena, on the. I mean, as you get to that spot and then obviously you have the ones that are coming out. Right. The one body, one spirit. What's the context in Ephesians? That's going on right there. That is it. Is it. This is something they're doing so great.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:49]:
Or is it. Hey, here's. We're now. By the time we're in chapter four, we're now going to pinpoint the issue that's going on. Where does the church in Ephesus fall at this moment? With this.
Dena Davidson [00:05:01]:
That's so good. Well, I'm going to take it back even further. Just kind of catch you up to this moment in Ephesians. A lot of people probably familiar with this, but if you're not, it's so helpful to know the background because it's a really important question you raise. In essence, no, they're not crushing this. They're not so unified and so one and so perfectly loving each other and being completely humble and gentle. Paul's writing this because that's really not what's going on in the church in that moment. So backing it up, we have the people of God, which is Israel in the Old Testament, and then everyone else, the Gentiles.
Dena Davidson [00:05:32]:
And so much of Israel's identity is formed around being separate right. From the Gentiles. And so this is a huge theme all through the Old Testament. So imagine showing up to the New Testament and getting this revelation that because of what Christ did on the cr. On the cross, now these Gentiles, those that are not a part of the family of God, they're being brought in and engrafted and made like, equal to the Jewish people.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:01]:
And that's in that. That's the spot. That would be the frustrating part. That's the rub. It's always kind of been, all right, they're going to come in.
Dena Davidson [00:06:06]:
Sure, anyone who wants to, you can.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:08]:
Come in, but convert to us and you're still going to be on the outside.
Dena Davidson [00:06:10]:
Exactly.
Jason Dixon [00:06:11]:
There's still a wall there. It's just lower.
Dena Davidson [00:06:13]:
Yes, there's still a wall. That's exactly perfect. So this is a crazy revelation for any New Testament Jewish believer that these Gentiles, they are part of a. Of the family of God. They're part of the body of Christ in the same exact way that I am as a Jewish believer who's waited and longed for the Messiah and finally has this promised Messiah. So Paul is writing to a church that even in their very founding, they were beginning to grapple with this issue of how do we properly understand the theology of what it means to bring together Jewish and Gentile Believers into the one body of Christ. And for them, it was really waking up and realizing we're in a story that we didn't think that we were in. This is bigger, and God is doing something that we didn't see coming.
Dena Davidson [00:07:03]:
Even though if you read the Old Testament, it actually says that this is coming.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:08]:
What about the idea? Is there. I mean, is he riffing here or are these specific words that he picks out and does he eliminate some others? Whenever he talks about one body, one spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism? I mean, I get the baptism kind of concept, Right? We kind of get the faith concept. What do you think? There is this exhaustive list of where unity is found, or is it. These are just examples.
Dena Davidson [00:07:37]:
I mean, I just think they're the center of the gospel. So even just unpacking the ones that he goes through. Keep the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:51]:
I'm sorry, is the body there, Jesus, or is the body the church?
Dena Davidson [00:07:55]:
The body, I think, is the church. What do you think? Am I wrong?
Kevin Thompson [00:07:58]:
No, I would think so.
Dena Davidson [00:07:59]:
I think going down in the rest.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:01]:
Of the world based on this is how this works.
Jason Dixon [00:08:02]:
I love this.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:03]:
I just sit there and ask Dena, hey, what does this actually mean?
Dena Davidson [00:08:06]:
And then I say, this is my thought. Am I wrong?
Jason Dixon [00:08:08]:
Tell me right now.
Dena Davidson [00:08:09]:
Because normally Curt would be like, now I'm gonna tell you which is the.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:12]:
Right answer, exactly what it is. We all trust you over Curt, though.
Dena Davidson [00:08:15]:
Oh, well, thank you. I trust Curt over me. So that's. That's probably a good practice of this passage, being completely humble and gentle. So I believe what he's talking about is the body. This whole passage is about the body of Christ. And this is the primary image that Paul uses in the epistles to describe what the church is. It is the body, and Jesus himself is the head.
Dena Davidson [00:08:39]:
That's so good.
Jason Dixon [00:08:40]:
And I think something there. And it goes back to Dena, what you were saying in the Old Testament, the oneness was gone. So it's like, you probably thought there were two bodies or maybe two. No, it's one. And so there's such a focus on unity now, what just happened on the cross. Now, unity is the foundation of following.
Dena Davidson [00:09:01]:
Jesus, which I think even if you wake up today and you hop online and you say, I want to go to church, there's so many options.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:08]:
It means a lot of things, right?
Dena Davidson [00:09:10]:
Like, I want to go to church. Which church? Which denomination? Which, you know, expression of Christianity.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:15]:
So which Bayside? I mean, there's.
Dena Davidson [00:09:17]:
Which Bayside. Exactly. Even if you decide, all right, Bayside's my church, I think there is a way in which we are practicing this in a way that makes this passage sometimes confusing. And are we really living up to that call that we have received to be one?
Kevin Thompson [00:09:33]:
But then he takes an interesting turn there in verse seven, where you could come to the wrong conclusion now, oh, we're all one, so we're all the same. Gifted, the same, perfect, tasked to be the same, all this kind of stuff. And he basically hits on this false premise of, hey, don't misunderstand me. Yes, unity, all these things. But to each one of us, now, this very individualistic kind of concept, each one of us, grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. As you look at that verse, Jason, what is it that really comes to mind that begins to convict your own heart?
Jason Dixon [00:10:05]:
I think it's interesting to be unified when you're thinking, thinking, just everything's the same. But here it's like, well, not quite so. I'm asking you to come together to something that Christ is giving to each one of us individually and so come together and bring unity to that. It's almost raising the bar of what we think unity really is. So that's kind of what I get.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:27]:
Out of that one.
Dena Davidson [00:10:28]:
I think oftentimes when we think about unity, we're just so concerned to bring about the unity and that we end up erasing all of our differences. Like, all right, so it doesn't matter what you're good at. Just join the team and be on the team and be all about what the team needs to accomplish. But that's not exactly the picture that he's given us here. Right, Kevin, what's your take on it?
Kevin Thompson [00:10:51]:
Yeah, no, it's that very thing that it's almost a contrarian kind of viewpoint. I see this, obviously, marriage, life, I'm contractually obligated to make sure change the odds of podcast, also available through the Thrive Podcast Network. But the idea of within marriage, we talk about either the two become one at the exclusion of the two, or the two remain individuals and never create the one. Whereas wholeness actually is the flourishing of all three. The unity in marriage is actually the byproduct of each individual now flourishing as God created them to be and then coming together. And so even within the idea of. My favorite kind of secular scholar is Dan Siegel down at ucla. So he talks about within the brain, that wholeness is the byproduct of the left hemisphere and the right hemisphere, each doing what they're called to do and then communicating with each other that then they create something larger than themselves.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:46]:
And so that's what I think is the picture here. It's each of us individually expressing who God has created us to be. And that's actually where the unity is found. That as we try to force other people to look like us or we try to act like we're somebody else, that actually creates disunity, even as we might be pursuing after the very connection that we're looking for.
Jason Dixon [00:12:04]:
You're having a comparison issue there, honestly rises up.
Dena Davidson [00:12:08]:
Absolutely. I think very practically, sometimes we get lost in this next section. And I don't know about you, but my temptation is to go from verse seven, where it says, but to each one of us, grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. And then I'm like, weirdness about ascending and keeping in captive. Let's go to 11. Yeah, but at the Bible study, we're more about pressing into those more challenging verses. So let's. Let's exegete these.
Dena Davidson [00:12:36]:
Let's say, ask the question, what was Paul attempting to communicate to the first people who would have heard this letter read to them in the city of Ephesus? And then later we'll get to the question of how are we to unpack that and apply it? So just to read it again, this is why it says, when he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men. What does he ascended mean, except that he also descended to the lower earthly regions. Now, Kevin, you were unpacking this for our team in sermon prep. There's a little controversy, actually. Multiple interpretations of this verse.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:12]:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, the question is, we know where he ascended from. We know he descended downward. The question is, how far did he go? I guess becomes the question.
Dena Davidson [00:13:21]:
So just to clarify, he came from.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:23]:
Yes. From heaven. Yes.
Dena Davidson [00:13:25]:
That's some good theology.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:26]:
Good job.
Jason Dixon [00:13:27]:
You got that one right.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:28]:
That's Markinson theology now.
Dena Davidson [00:13:29]:
Amen.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:31]:
But then the question becomes, I think primarily there are two camps, although Mark kind of implied that there were more than just two camps.
Dena Davidson [00:13:36]:
I know. I didn't know what he was talking about, but I believe him.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:38]:
Okay. It's always scary when Mark says, I do.
Dena Davidson [00:13:41]:
I trust my pastor.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:42]:
When Mark says something heretical, it's always scary. So the two main camps, I would say, and then Mark Clark has his other three, I guess, is the idea of he descended down to earth. And so this is Jesus The Incarnation that is there powerful point that can kind of come with that. Or you get into this idea that has been held some within Protestant world, many within the Catholic world, that he descended into hell so that after the crucifixion, during that timeframe, before he was resurrected, that he was actually in Hades, in hell now proclaiming the word to give those a second chance, basically an option that's coming there. And so different people kind of value in different ways. How do you draw your conclusion on this?
Dena Davidson [00:14:21]:
I really do see the Incarnation here. I think in part. I'm gonna read you the Psalm passage that this references. So if you go into your Bible and it has footnotes or study notes, it's going to refer you to Psalm 68, verses 15 through 18. So let me read it out to you. Mount Bashan, majestic mountain. Mount Bashan, rugged mountain. Why gaze in envy you rugged mountain? At the mountain where God chooses to reign, where the Lord himself will dwell forever.
Dena Davidson [00:14:50]:
So essentially David, the psalmist is saying to this other mountain, do you look on in envy at the mountain where God has chosen to reign? The chariots of God are tens of thousands and thousands of thousands. The Lord has come from Sinai, the mountain that he dwells on. The Lord has come from Sinai into His sanctuary. When you ascended on high, you took many captives, you received gifts from people, even from the rebellious, that you, Lord God might dwell there. So I think if you read Psalm 68, there's this clear image of God dwells on Mount Sinai, which we know that's where he gave Moses the ten Commandments. He dwells on this mountain in the Israelites imagination. Even though we know God is bigger than dwelling in one place, he chooses to come, make his presence known at that mountain. And then he descends from that mountain and comes out and fights these battles on behalf of the Israelites, who are supposed to go out and conquer all of these neighboring nations to get the promised land.
Dena Davidson [00:15:48]:
So God comes down from the mountain and he conquers, and then out of this conquest he gives them gifts. So I think based on the imagery in Psalm 68, I think it's a pretty clear incarnation parallel of Jesus himself eternally existing as one of the members of the Godhead, coming down from heaven to make a conquest, to fight and defeat evil and the powers of darkness, and to put sin in its place. I think you can extend that obviously to preaching in Hades and hell. But to me, the parallel to the incarnation is just so right there.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:24]:
Yeah, yeah. So the other side is, I mean, probably heard best in the Apostles Creed. That idea.
Dena Davidson [00:16:30]:
If anyone doesn't know what the Apostles Creed is.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:32]:
The Apostles Creed. I believe in God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, crucified, dead and buried, he descended into hell. But on the third day, he rose again.
Dena Davidson [00:16:46]:
That was so impressive.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:47]:
Descended.
Dena Davidson [00:16:48]:
That was going to happen.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:49]:
From whence he will come to judge living in the dead.
Jason Dixon [00:16:51]:
Come on.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:52]:
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the beginning of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.
Jason Dixon [00:16:56]:
We forgot to stand.
Dena Davidson [00:16:57]:
Should we just end. We forgot to press the.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:59]:
But that phrase, he descended into hell.
Dena Davidson [00:17:01]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:02]:
So help me. Had you asked me the Nicene Creed, I would have no idea. But he descended into hell. Is that concept of that belief kind of comes out of one Peter, really. I mean, I would struggle to understand where the deep biblical references there are. It seems as though that that's not a prevailing kind of concept. Now, I think the glory of it is this. We were joking in our preaching meeting earlier.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:26]:
For those who disagree on this, it doesn't change the point of this text one bit. The point of the text is he did not have to descend in humility. He chose to do so. Now, modeling for us a way of life, this complete humility that we're talking about, this gentleness, this patience, this bearing with one another. Now he did that and now he's ascended back up. And so because of that, he now speaks with this tremendous authority and understanding of how to go about life. Now he's inviting us into this very similar way.
Jason Dixon [00:17:55]:
Yeah. And I think so.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:56]:
The Nicene Creed. You got it?
Jason Dixon [00:17:57]:
Yes, got it out later. I think what's important with that is when you said, now he has this authority, and so much authority comes with experience. And I think when you're thinking about the Incarnation, one thing that Jesus did is he came and he experienced the lowest part of humanity. So you go back to Genesis and in the garden, and all of a sudden something happens, and. And now mortality and death come into the picture. And that is the lowest part and the deepest and darkest part of humanity is now death is part of our life. And so Jesus came down and experienced that. So that gave.
Jason Dixon [00:18:29]:
He's. Listen, I'm speaking with direct authority, not just from heaven, but true human experience of what I willingly gave myself up to.
Dena Davidson [00:18:38]:
That's so powerful. And what I love about this conversation is it highlights what can Happen when you slow down and you don't just, you know, I'm drinking my coffee and I want to just get to the next verse because it's a little easier to interpret, which I'm not putting on anyone but me. Raise my hand for that. When you slow down and you just pause enough to ask a question, what is he talking about?
Jason Dixon [00:19:00]:
What's going on here?
Dena Davidson [00:19:01]:
What is going on here? Why is this confusing? And then it helps to have some big theological themes in mind. So to be a good student of Scripture, one is we go verse by verse. But also there's this need to back up and say, what are the big ideas in Scripture? We call them theology, but theology is just a fancy word for the big ideas. And so, like you said, the word Incarnation, if you know about the theology of incarnation, that a big theme is that God does not abandon us to our mess, but enters the lowest of lows, like you're saying, Jason, and. And redeems us and rescues us. Then when he starts to use that word descended and ascended, you might be, oh, maybe he's talking about the Incarnation. That's a good jumping off point.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:47]:
I also think we talk about verse by verse, but I think sometimes where some might confuse it a little bit is they assume that then it has to be in this very linear format of one leads to two leads to three leads to four. I think a key biblical interpretation kind of guide here is, all right, read it straight through. Great. Well, then read it backwards. And then the later verses start to interpret the early verses. So you have this idea of verse seven, but to each one, grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. Okay, so verses 8, 9, and 10 are going to explain what apportioned it meant.
Dena Davidson [00:20:22]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:22]:
And so if you have the interpretation that you had, which I think is correct, that this is now the Incarnation, it is that the image of a king who's gone off to battle, won the war, came, brings back all the spoils of war. Now in an overflow, a plethora of gifts, he is now handing them out without any hesitation of lack or any hesitation. He already has full need now it brings him tremendous pleasure now to hand these things out. And verses 8, 9, and 10 explain verses 7, which then leads to verse 11. So what are some of those gifts? Verse 11. So Christ Himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers. Why? To equip his people for works of service. And so now we see how those gifts play into a context.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:11]:
But you only kind of get that if you read the passage backwards.
Dena Davidson [00:21:14]:
That's so good. I had a professor.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:16]:
Would y' all tell me if it wasn't. It'd be funny how.
Dena Davidson [00:21:18]:
Yeah, it would just be silence.
Jason Dixon [00:21:20]:
One time, start saying, that's bad.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:21]:
One time, you need to say, I don't get that.
Dena Davidson [00:21:23]:
Okay, yeah, maybe. Solid. Maybe. Kevin. I had a professor in college. I was a philosophy major, and he was passionate to teach his students how to read philosophy. And Paul, of all the biblical writers, he writes the most like a philosopher. It's a form that he uses.
Dena Davidson [00:21:40]:
He said, first you read it fast. So if you're reading some dense philosophy, first you read it fast, then you read it slow. And when you read it slow, you read the first page, and you read the last page, and you don't read the middle until you understand the first page and the last page. Cause the first page sets up the problem, and the last page introduces you to the conclusion. Everything in the middle is how he got there. So it's exactly what you're saying. And that's good advice. With Paul, when you.
Dena Davidson [00:22:07]:
When you don't understand something, read the beginning, read the end, see where he's coming from, see where he's going, and then the. The middle will help you figure out how he got there. It's really helpful advice. So I have this question. Are we supposed to read this? This idea was introduced in sermon prep. Are we supposed to read this and try to find ourselves in. In this passage? Is that some good eisegesis, or is that, like, good exegesis?
Kevin Thompson [00:22:35]:
Objection, you, Honor.
Dena Davidson [00:22:36]:
Is there good eisegesis?
Kevin Thompson [00:22:39]:
That's leading. That question's leading, Your Honor.
Dena Davidson [00:22:40]:
Yes. Okay, fair enough. Okay, so eisegesis is where we put our meaning into scripture. Exegesis is where we take our. We take God's meaning and we bring it out. I have to say that otherwise Curt would probably fire us from the podcast. So should we go looking for ourselves in this verse? Is that how it's meant to be read?
Kevin Thompson [00:22:58]:
I think it's okay to get there eventually.
Dena Davidson [00:23:00]:
Okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:01]:
Yeah. I always like. I mean, R.C. sproul wouldn't have liked this very much, but I always like the idea of a primary interpretation and a secondary interpretation, that there is a clear primary interpretation of the text. We're searching that out, seeking it out. But then I do think that there are possible secondary interpretations that you can look at. So I would say first and foremost here, that we're seeing the. The wholeness of what God has created within his church and how each individual can kind of begin to fit together and the bigger picture is what is at play.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:32]:
I do think after we get that, it's fair. Because I was even thinking in sermon prep today, all right. If I had to define myself as one of these, I don't know. I mean, that's even a topic for a later episode on even spiritual gifts. Are spiritual gifts things that we actually possess, or are they gifts that we can possess whenever we're in that specific role? So I do think to some extent that these are five roles that we all need to play, but then probably one or two of them come easier than the others. Yeah, absolutely.
Jason Dixon [00:24:03]:
Yeah. And I think when it comes to this and you start naming these different things and the prophets and the evangelists and the pastors, it goes back to what we were talking about right when we said, but to each one of us. And so just this theme of unity in the middle of difference is great. And it's what we should seek because we are different. And we have these giftings and these callings and these amazing things that God has given us. And so how do we bring unity.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:31]:
In the middle of that?
Jason Dixon [00:24:32]:
And when we do, that's the church, and that's what's beautiful.
Dena Davidson [00:24:36]:
That's one of my favorite things of working at Bayside. We have so many different campuses and so many different styles of leadership and some very clear expressions of these gifts. It's easy to be like, oh, this person's that. This person's that. I can just see the grace of God on their life. They're excellent at winning people to Christ, but this person is excellent at shepherding people through hard circumstances. And, boy, I think we'll get to application here. I'd say so.
Dena Davidson [00:25:03]:
Get ready your application thought. My application is, I wonder if you can show up to church on Sunday and instead of looking for the faults of the people who are leading you, the faults of the people leading you, worshiping the faults of the people, taking care of your kids, the faults of the people preaching the faults of the greeters, instead of looking for those faults, would you show up to church this Sunday looking for the gifting, looking for the calling, the specific grace that God has handed out because he's the one with all the authority and he has gifted his people? What if we ended up being people who didn't just see the flaws, but also saw the calling and the gifting on each person's life? And we cheerleaded them into those positions, you know, like Mark, be whatever Mark is, Kevin. Be whatever Kevin is Jason Be whatever a Jason is. Dena, be whatever Adina is. I think that would change our experience of church a little bit.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:02]:
Yeah, no, that's good. That's very good application. I mean, I come back to this idea of wholeness, of that's the picture. So everything is set in place, everything we need is present, but we are not where we fully God intended us to be. It's a process of sanctification that's taking place. And now this is a very practical kind of concept of how that happens. Notice it doesn't happen in isolation, because especially in our Western kind of American thought, the idea would be, oh, yeah, I need to read my Word more, I need to develop more. I need to take classes.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:33]:
So it'd be all me centered. But now it is this idea that this wholeness ultimately is found within the concept of the church, as we're each playing a part and a role as we're building each other up. And just how that process begins to play out is kind of the thing I took away from this. What about you, Jay?
Jason Dixon [00:26:49]:
Yeah, with that, it kind of comes alongside that. And I wrote this down. The body only grows when every part plays its part. And so that idea of when we are celebrating, like you were just saying, Dena, when you come to church and just celebrate what people are called to the part that they play and healthy things grow. And what Paul is showing us here is he's giving us a structure and a framework of what a healthy church looks like. And if we live into that unity and we play the part that our part plays its part, then we will see such a successful and flourishing church. And that's what we need. That's what the world needs, is a successful and a flourishing church.
Dena Davidson [00:27:27]:
Amen. Amen. I love that. All right, this is a passage. We're going to be diving in even deeper, too, over the next few episodes, so don't worry if you feel like we missed a lot. We did, but we'll go back and we will continue to unpack it. So next week, we will have Cameron Wells from our Adventure Campus, which you know Cam.
Jason Dixon [00:27:47]:
I do know Cam, yes. He's a pretty cool guy.
Dena Davidson [00:27:49]:
We recommend him 10 out of 10. Yeah. So we encourage you to share this episode. There's someone that needs this message to hear, just that God has chosen them and given them a particular gift. So if you know that this message would be encouraging, please, like, share it and subscribe to our podcast. That way you get notified every single time a new one release, as well as, obviously the change pods forget about.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:16]:
The Mark Clark podcast, but check out Am I doing this Right With Morgan and Leslie. Very important.
Dena Davidson [00:28:21]:
Kevin, always a firm supporter of Mark, so we love you guys. Thank you so much for tuning in.